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Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY NIGHT. All day. You believe? >> Mhm. >> I think something’s going on. I don’t know what that something is. >> Yeah, I know. That’s the whole argument of um you know a species living long enough to surviving long enough to actually have faster than light or at fast light travel is it’s a tough one. >> It is a tough one. Are we rolling? I think um they probably have some unique propulsion system that has nothing to do with moving in one direction to another. I think they fold space and time. Yeah. >> This is what Yeah. the the what is it the the um the wormhole that brings the two things together so you skip all lists. >> Yeah, I think that’s the theory, but I mean obviously >> it’s them living that’s it’s that species existing long enough cuz we’re like we’re getting close to >> Yeah. >> you know and we’re nowhere near that. So the species living long enough to achieve that and then come here is the you know that’s that’s the the stumbling block I have. >> Yeah. Well a lot of people have that a lot of people have that stumbling block. I think there’s also the possibility that they didn’t evolve in the same violent world that we did. >> But then there’s a question well then what gave them the motivation to innovate and move forward? Because for us a lot of it is survival and competition and that’s the reason why people innovate in the first place. >> Wars create great innovation. >> I mean the real the the more interesting theory is that they’re monitoring us to make sure that we can successfully pass this sort of adolescent phase of evolution that we’re currently in. >> Yeah. >> That’s why they hover over nuclear bases and [ __ ] >> We hope we hope we get there. It’s uh very debatable. >> Yeah. Well, listen, man. Um, thank you for being here. It’s kind of cool to meet you. It’s fascinating. I mean, I’ve listened to your music when I was in high school, which is crazy. >> And to see you look as good as you look now. I mean, we played a video. I don’t know if you ever saw we played. >> We were freaking out. Like, this guy’s like, “How old are you?” >> 77. >> 77. That’s [ __ ] incredible, dude. because a lot of your contemporaries when they’ve, you know, even guys younger than you, they’re falling apart and you were out there singing Jesse’s Girl like you wrote it a week ago. It was crazy. >> That was actually a great comment. I really appreciate that cuz it’s uh I’m I’m still very passionate about playing music and you know and they say, “How do why do you how can you deliver a song that you’ve played a million times?” It’s cuz the the energy of the audience, you know, I mean, I wrote the song and to see an audience react like that to it. It’s pretty difficult to just sit back and go, you know, so it it charges me up, too. Well, it’s nice that you still enjoy it and appreciate it because I think even though it’s the dream for everyone to become a rock star, for some >> I mean for some people something happens along the way and they just get so accustomed to it and they get, you know, worn out by it and then they don’t love it anymore, >> which is crazy. >> I know. Well, um I obviously it depends on the person, you know, and it depends on what whatever experiences they have. >> Um I’ve had pretty good experiences. Um and I just I don’t I’ve always wanted to do it, you know? I mean, I since I was 11 years old when I first saw and held my first guitar, I that was what I wanted to do. And really it’s kind of centered around playing guitar, although that’s not what I’m necessarily known for, but that’s what I enjoy the most, you know, and um and when I started to write that that that kind of changed everything for me, too, you know. It gave me a a great f forward focus rather than just playing, but going somewhere with the writing. >> How old were you when you first started performing in front of people? >> Uh about 15. 15 I started play. I you know I had a school band together and um and then I I got kicked out of school and actually I got kicked out of 11th grade and >> for what what happened? >> I didn’t show up anymore. I just you know I show I discovered the guitar and um and and I was having I was I had serious depression when I was a kid. I still deal with it. But but um it I was failing in the only arena that was available to me at the time which was school you know with friends and school and work and all that school work and I just wasn’t doing well and it was really dragging me down and I started discovered the guitar started staying away from school because I couldn’t face going to school. Um but you know instead of playing video games and getting sewn which wasn’t available to me at that point um I was reading um Robert Block and August Derlith and great writers because I loved horror and playing the guitar and that was my education really after once I learned to read and write you know that was what I took out of school. >> Where were you living? Uh, I lived in Australia till I was 10. Then we moved to England till I was about 13. And that was a big that was a game changer for me was >> Yeah, because your accent is weird. >> It’s like it’s all over the place. It’s like trying to I’m trying to lock it in and figure out what the hell’s going on. >> I know there’s some words I can’t say with American accent. I can’t say Australia without with an American accent. It’s just not possible. Um, yeah, we moved to England. That’s when I discovered Girls and Guitars. And that was like this the beginning for me. It was a band called Clifer in the Shadows. Cliff Richard in the Shadows. They were before the Beatles. And um yeah, it was uh and then I moved back to Australia and then I went to Vietnam for a couple of months. And then I was uh you Vietnam >> uh 68 69. I was um there was uh promoters in Saigon and Daang and they were looking for the closest accidental country was Australia. So the GIS wanted to see, you know, girls that reminded them of home. So as long we had a couple of girls in the band, they would hire you and you could tour Vietnam during the war zone. It was it was pretty insane. We were there for about 4 months. >> What was that like? Uh it was insane. Uh I I thought, “Oh, great. We’ll make money, you know, and of course we didn’t make any money. We spent it all at the PX and uh we weren’t making much money anyway.” But we based out of Saigon and Daang and we toured from Cameron Bay up to uh the DMZ. We were at the DMZ, the Tet after the Tet where they’d crossed over the vehicle and crossed into the cities and everything and like done the big um assault, you know, the Tet assault. We were there. I We’re two miles from the DMZ on that next T and I remember New Year’s Eve and the flare the, you know, the parachute flare start going off like this and we’re and there’s like a line of guys heading towards us and it was freaking freaky. They, you know, they kept them at bay, but we got shot at and rocketed and we’d be playing and there’d be mortars landing. stayed over and we we befriended some uh uh Navy guys at uh Marble Mountain, which is outside Da Nang, and we went back there for for uh to give them a free show, you know, cuz they were so appreciative, you know. I mean, they they loved seeing the girls, but they they wanted connection with home, you know, so they to take you into the tents and we’d play Hrix and >> and get stoned and and you know, I mean, even though we’re Australian, there still was there was a connection there. And uh so we met these guys and we really got along well and we stayed overnight at the uh with them at the on and we went all got in the bunkers in the perimeter bunkers and I stayed in the radio shack and we got attacked and I’m throwing mortars down the freaking tube of the radio shack and it was >> you were throwing mortars. >> It was freaky. Yeah. This is before you couldn’t do any of this now. This is 196869 and it was uh the you know you see traces going off the guys the rest of the bambber and perimeter bunkers and it was uh it was pretty insane. Holy [ __ ] >> We actually went up on a mission in Apache helicopter too um cuz they said you guys want to come and we’re all like yeah but it was you know we it was uh pretty hairy. Holy [ __ ] man. That’s got to be insane. Were you when when you were over there, were you like, “What the [ __ ] have I done?” >> It was fe was fear. Sorry, I went down the wrong way. It was pretty much fear factor the whole time. >> Holy [ __ ] man. >> We be, you know, we slept with um Hang on. As you get older, you get a dry throat. We slept with a lot of the times where the GI slept in their, you know, their hooches and wake up with with dust. >> Is that you over there? >> Oh, yeah. There we are. >> Holy [ __ ] man. >> That’s what we slept in, the hooches a lot of the time. >> How old were you then? >> Um, was I uh 67, 68, 69? I was 18. >> Wow. Wow. >> Yeah. And those jeans hadn’t been washed in about 3 months. Do you had to be like rethinking that decision to go over there? >> Um I was there and it was okay, we make the best of it. I mean there was you kind of fall into a mindset although I wasn’t you know I wasn’t going out you know shooting with the GIS and you fall into a mindset there that everything’s legal you know you anything anything goes we um we did some pretty nutty things there at one point we were standing in line with 40 other guys in a in a a hut and uh being serviced by this one one Vietnamese hooker and it was just >> 40 guys waiting for one hooker. >> Yeah. >> Holy [ __ ] >> Um and there was nothing much to do but smoke, you know. I smoked dope started smoking dope there. >> That was the first time. >> Yeah. But I haven’t I didn’t I haven’t not really been a doper, you know, but I did there and it was kind of considered just a thing to do. Everybody was stoned. All the soldiers were stoned >> all the time. >> Yep. Yeah. >> Wow. >> You know, >> the last thing I would want to do is be high in a war zone. >> Uh, dude, I we were in a we’re in the train, right, which is this beautiful uh beach town and and they go there for RNR cuz they could surf, right? But it was still dangerous. And we were in a uh we stay in these sometimes if we weren’t with staying on an army base, we’d stay in these old villas that were old French villas that were once beautiful and now we’re ratinfested, you know? I mean, we’d be sleeping on CS and rats would be gone underneath. We we got stoned. I remember one night we got stoned and the next thing you hear machine gun right outside the house and you hear the guy goes, “HIT THE LIGHTS. HIT THE FLOOR.” OF COURSE, the lights go out and we all hit the floor and you didn’t know what was going on, but when you’re stoned, it’s like, oh my god, it could have been anything. >> Holy [ __ ] man. >> But it was it was freaky. But the but being stoned helped you deal with it, you know, not have the constant fear. Although when the fear hit, if you’re stoned, it’s like you go over the over the top, you know, but it was just the way we deal with I I remember um we’d be playing for the troops, you know, we playing on the back of a truck and we played in in um uh uh fire bases. We didn’t, you know, I we all thought it was going to be like a Bob Hope tour. You know, you come in a fleet of helicopters. You play they you know, they were sitting in bleaches. I applaud you get in a helicopter, fly away. It was nothing like that. Was just a a guy out of Saigon that that hired uh hired us. And um uh what was I what was I talking about? I get lost very easily. I have ADHD and there’s so much awesome [ __ ] around here to look at that I’m kind of >> um we were talking about getting stoned and uh >> Oh yeah. And we were sitting on playing on a on a back of a truck and there’s a guy sitting there on their helmets with their M16s, right? Just watching the show and and we finish and this guy comes up to me and he’s stoned out of his head. He’s go I’m going to go out and see what I can kill now, man. and he puts his helmet on and walks out into the jungle with a with a company. But it was just bizarre experiences like that that now I look back and go, “What the [ __ ] was I thinking?” You know, it was uh it was unreal. And and it’s so weird because I’ve I remember Arthur C. Clark telling the story about how he’s sitting with a guy on a plane said, “What do you do?” He said, “Oh, during the war.” And he went on for two hours about what happened during the war. He says, “What do you do now?” I says, “I’m a insurance salesman.” And that was it. You know, like what he does now was a >> Yeah. >> But the whole the war experience, you know, it’s it’s it’s you could go on forever because it’s so much happens and it’s such a in a space so much is lived, you know, and it the fear is uh kind of when having that much that much fear constantly is is is pretty taxing. And now it wasn’t we weren’t even going out and shooting although we did uh we’d shoot everything from 45s to tanks and we and um you know we’d be driving along and get shot at and and like I said we’d be playing and the rockets or the mortars would start landing and they’d hustle us into a into a bunker. But it was uh you know we weren’t actually going out like those guys were and walking point you know. Well, that was also one of the strangest wars ever cuz it didn’t make any sense that why we were over there and then when the soldiers came home instead of being greeted like heroes like they were in World War II >> spat on. Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean it was uh >> it was really terrible for them cuz no meeting them over there they go no they you think oh when they get over there probably yeah we we’re here we’ll do a job. You know all the ones I met were dude I don’t know why we’re here. I don’t know what I’m doing here. All of them while they were, you know, fighting. So, it’s uh it was it was a it was a bad war for sure. >> No, one of the worst wars ever. And these guys coming back from that. It was it just that that experience must have been so different because you’re over there, you’re killing people, you don’t know why you killed people, and then then you’re in the grocery store like that scene from uh what’s that movie? >> You know the movie I’m talking about? No. >> Apocalypse. >> No, no, no, no. Um, Hurt Locker. >> Remember when the guy comes back, he was uh, you know, uh, diffusing IEDs. He comes back and he’s walking to the grocery store and he’s just like, “What the [ __ ] am I doing?” Like the the contrast between the two places just too much. It’s too crazy. >> Yeah. That’s my mom said when I came back and they picked me up at the airport she said a car backfired and I like jumped and I don’t remember it but she said you know my eyes look kind of haunted. >> I could only imagine. >> Took me a while to kind of get through it. >> Did you see people die over there? >> What’s that? >> Did you see people die over there? >> Um we saw trophy albums which were kind of scary. They said a lot of the GI kept trophy albums where they’d photograph like body parts or a guy that had a 50 mm shell go through his head, you know, and >> it was um pretty freaky. Um the the leader of the band actually died when we got home from a disease he picked over picked up over there, a lung disease. Died at 25. >> What was it? >> Um his name is Pete Watson. He was the leader of the band. I was a guitar player in the band. I wasn’t a lead singer or anything and he um we he must have gone somewhere where we didn’t go on the days off and you know picked up something >> just some jungle disease. >> Yeah. The guy the doctor said you’ve been anywhere exotic lately. He said I just got back from Vietnam. Why? He said well you got this thing in your lungs that is pretty rare. So, you know, I don’t know if it was Agent Orange or if it was something you picked up from the from, you know, whatever was in Vietnam, but yeah, he lasted about a year. >> Oh, wow. Unfortunately, none of you guys got it. >> Yeah, we all we all raced to the doctors and got, you know, chest X-rays and but it was okay. But, yeah, he it’s weird. the um I said I was looking him up the other day and it’s uh didn’t realize he was so young when he died. You know, he was older than me then. So seemed like an older guy, but he was only 25. >> Wow. How much time in total were you over there for? >> Uh about 4 months. >> Holy [ __ ] man. >> And there was a point where they wanted us to go play in North Vietnam. They said, “We’ll keep the choppers going. Uh there’s a troop over there that wants you to come and play and we’ll keep the choppers going. And so if we if we get into trouble, you can get, you know, and luckily he said, “No, we’re not doing that.” The wait is over. Football is here and so is DraftKings. The DraftKings sports app is now live in all 50 states. That means from Texas to California to Florida. Every fan is in on the excitement. And this September, DraftKings is giving customers the opportunity to get boosted every football game day. That’s right, every game day. All month long, DraftKings customers can get a football profit boost. One app, every sport, all 50 states. New DraftKings customers sign up with Code Rogan. Spend just five bucks and get 200 in total rewards within 21 days. Includes all markets. 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What was the decompression like when you got back home? >> I don’t really remember because um it’s just one of those I mean I the hardest thing for me was that um I had thrown a mortar down and it had hit somebody and uh they came in the next day and said, “Hey, you got one. You got one.” And um that was it still has a place hard place to land in me, you know. >> Yeah. >> And that’s really the kind of the one thing I brought back with me that I couldn’t really find a place for that to land. And still it still seems like you know years ago another another guy another place. >> So explain to me how this is happening. like where are you where you’re throwing these mortars down? >> Place called Marble Mountain Marble Mountain. was outside Da Nang and it was a Navy encampment on the beach and uh and I was in the radio shack and um and the guy the band members were in the perimeter the perimeter boxes you know and they radio you know it was like the movies radio came in uh act we’re seeing movement over here check for friendlies uh and they said no no friendlies there so uh they said hey you want throw some mortars down the tube and it was John Wayne time, you know. I mean, I as a young kid, I didn’t really understand what I was doing. I said, “Oh, yeah, let’s fire a gun, you know.” So, I threw the mortars down, about five or six mortars, which I could have easily lost a hand, you know? I mean, you you kind that kind of thing. And and um and they came in the next morning and said one of them had hit a VC. Wow. How long did that sit with you for? >> What’s that? >> How long did that sit with you for? Like how long? >> I think it’s still there, you know? I mean it doesn’t I it’s it’s hard for me to you know kind of face that I was responsible for the end of a you know a a life even though it’s distant and it’s war and I didn’t really have anything to do with it and didn’t really know what I was doing but you know as a kid and playing like I said John Wayne but it was um it’s it’s pretty heavy when you know, when I think about the reality of it. >> Did you write any songs about that experience? >> Um, no. I wrote about it in my autobiography, but uh it’s not really Well, not yet. Hasn’t been sold material. >> Yeah, cuz it seems like there’s probably something there. >> Oh, yeah. There’s definitely some something there for sure. Um, I have a I mean, not to to commercialize it, but I have a a record, a new record coming out that deals with, which probably could be elements from that. It deals with getting older and, you know, like my first album, Working Class Dog, was I was 29, 30. It was all about getting laid, you know, cuz that’s all a guy thinks of and that’s what you’re right about. But as you get older, there’s other things to think about. Um, so there’s, you know, getting older, you know, the thinking of, uh, death isn’t somewhere out there. And so, you write I write about stuff that I think about, and that’s what I’ve been thinking about. Um, you know, sex is still in there, but not as much as it was when I was 29 and 30. >> Of course. Yeah. Well, it’s uh kind of amazing because when you were young and when you first started on this musical journey, there were no 76-y old rock stars. >> It didn’t exist. And it was thought to be a young man’s game, period. And when people got to be a certain age, they just stopped playing. >> Mhm. >> And you know, the Rolling Stones were like sort of the first to defy that. >> Yeah. I remember in uh 88 they put out an album and it was a big deal that God the Rolling Stones put out a new album. This is crazy. These guys are going to go on tour. This is crazy. >> I know. And they just recently said, “Well, I don’t know if I can do it anymore.” Keith did right. >> I know. Recently now I saw them >> Yeah. >> at Circuit of the Americas, the racetrack out here. It was like a 100,000 people four years ago, three years ago, whatever it was when they they played in Austin. It was [ __ ] incredible, man. >> Mick has two trailers that are just gym equipment. >> He has two huge tractor trailers and the inside of it is just a gym. >> That’s awesome. >> And that guy works out every day just so he can keep doing it. >> Yeah. you I mean he’s an the inspiration as far as how far you can push it cuz >> he’s the canary in the coal mine. >> The last I mean their last album he sounds incredible kind of like he’s 18 you know >> I mean Paulie is now starting to you know I love Paul McCartney’s been he was the guy I looked up to as a kid you know and he’s starting to get a little you know a little weaker but um but he’s still amazing I mean to me he’s one of the great rock voices. Oh, for sure. >> Um, but Jagger is it’s crazy. I mean, still sounds the same. >> Not just sounds the same, but when he’s on stage, he’s moving. >> He’s nonstop. >> Nonstop. and dancing and moving and singing with emotion and >> and it seems just like I when I saw you perform Jesse’s Girl like he’s singing it like he still loves it like he still appreciates the experience >> and never got jaded by it all. >> Yeah. I think um I mean I saw an interview recently with him and he said and the guy said, you know, do you feel different? because it because you know you’ve been this all your life. He goes, “Yeah, I feel different than other people because of it. You know, I feel separate from them.” And I and I understand that there is a degree of that that just happens cuz it’s it’s not normal to get up and in front of, you know, a thousand a couple of thousand people and have them want to be there and to be with you and to sing. You know, it’s it’s I guess that’s kind of the element of everyone want to be a rock star is as an actor. You’re not an actor’s done on film or whatever and then played, you know, but the the rock star has it on record plus he’s got it live. That live connection is uh I think what everybody kind of looks at in the end as far as that’s what I’d love to do >> is have all those people go, “Yeah.” Well, it’s also that experience is such a positive experience for everyone. For you, for them, it’s a when you when I go to a live concert, I I’m always amazed at how good it feels. Like there’s a it’s like you’re on a drug. Like you’re feeling it. Like it’s like everyone is loving the music, the sound, the performers there, and the fact that they’re actually right there. There’s so much going on that it’s like you walk out, you’re like, “That was [ __ ] awesome.” >> I know. I I feel like it’s uh kind of taken the place of of church, you know, where we go to commune with uh with our fellow, you know, humans and we’re all it’s different than a sports event because sports event is generally two sides, right? >> But when you’re at a concert, everyone’s pointing the same way. >> Also, it’s all positive. Like if your team loses, you don’t leave there dejected. Yeah. >> If you’re there to see, you know, fill in the blank, whatever band, and you leave there, you’re like, “Fuck, that was awesome.” Yeah. Yeah. I I I say actually that our job is to give >> the audience 90 minutes, 2 hours of freedom from the crap that bothers them during the day. Yes. >> And it frees us too, you know, frees me when I don’t think of all the [ __ ] that that, >> you know, that the monkeys talk in my head. So, it’s uh mutual, you know, mutual good feeling. >> Yeah. 100%. And it’s also it’s like such a uniquely positive thing that you can give to people. >> And what if you if you can perform to your fans every night, the amount of positivity you’re spreading and the amount they’re receiving and you’re receiving is just what a unique life because the average person will never experience what you experience on a normal night. >> Yeah, that’s probably true. Um I I think there are different uh var you know version of that. I mean like you’re you know you you understand that you get a lot of attention for what you do you know it’s uh basically someone you and somewhere inside you going someone’s noticing me what I do uh I’m not just it’s not just you know because we create art art we create art um because we just have to And art doesn’t exist to be liked. Our ego wants it to be liked. >> And it’s our ego. I think that that whole thing uh charges, you know, the whole audiencing charges. But I think if you don’t have any any ego, you’re not going to get into the business anyway, >> right? >> And I think it feeds that. And I think it’s uh it’s the smart person who can try and put it into perspective and not you know like certainly MC Jagger has put it into perspective. He certainly had time to put it into perspective and his is you know a huge experience but I think Paul McCartney is same way is very seems >> you know considering what he’s done he’s amazingly grounded I think. Yeah, for sure. I mean, just to be not completely insane. Yeah. When you’re that famous for that many years to >> the most famous. >> I think everyone has to have an ego and the ego kind of gets you to the dance. But if I think if you’re objective about it and if you’re smart about it, you realize that like serving the ego is uh it’s a fruitless effort. It’s there’s that’s not the way to do it. No, I I I agree. I >> think the way to do it is to eventually transfer from I want all these people to like me to I want to put all my energy into the whatever it is, the craft, whatever it is, and making it amazing. >> And don’t think about anything else like, oh, they’re going to love me for this. That I think that poisons the well. >> I think so. I I agree. And I and I think that’s what I meant by, you know, art just is you just create art >> out of, you know, because you have to, because you need to, but but it’s the ego that makes it want to be liked, you know, which is not I don’t mean that’s a good thing. I just mean that’s >> it gets you to the dance. >> Yeah. >> There’s no without ego, without wanting that. And most most people who start out in it, >> they start out from a place of being an outcast and feeling like they don’t get enough attention. So, well, me too. And then you decide, oh, uh, this will get me way more attention than I’ve ever had in my life, and it’ll fill that hole. >> Fill that hole. But it never does. >> Never does. But I think once you become centered or grounded in this experience, then your focus should not be on you and attention. All of your energy should be into what you’re doing, whether it’s making songs or writing jokes and performing them, whatever it is. It’s like then it becomes, okay, now the the new task with all this energy is just let me do the best I can with whatever this thing is that I’m doing. >> Yeah, I agree. I I think like the first I always say the first couple of years when I when it first hit for me, I thought it was all about me and then I realized it was all about the audience, all about the fans. >> Was Jesse’s Girl first big hit? Um, I had had one when I first came over here in 72 from Australia. I had a song called Speak to the Sky that was it got me the deal over here. It was a first hit solo hit I’d had in Australia and it was um like number 10 got to number 10 over here and was a hit in Canada, but it was it was kind of a weird country, you know, holy roller kind of song. I wrote it for my mom and um >> Oh, that’s cool. very different than, you know, what I became known for. But it was uh that was kind of the first hit. And then they kind of they managers I started getting picked up by teen magazines which I’d never seen before. In Australia, they didn’t have them. They had one music paper and that was it. and they’re asking me, you know, doing all I’m doing all these interviews, music interviews, and I I look at the the finished article and it’s like, you know, cuddle up with Rick, you know, is Rick too tall Rick too tall to love? I’m what the [ __ ] is this? This is not what we talked about. I talked about, you know, yeah, I come over here um I’m a songwriter and I want to, you know, all this kind of stuff and I’m going, what is this? So, I started um you know, I I my my ego got the better of me and I started going, well, I’m you know, I’m getting noticed in America. It’s a big apple, you know. Um so, I I should I kind of lean into this, I guess, you know, because I’m getting a lot of press. So, I did for a little while and it was going nowhere. was I wasn’t writing the music that that you know I was writing songs about a guy that committed suicide, writing songs about a woman that was trying to decide if she should leave her husband cuz he’s cheating on her and and they’re going where’s you know where is Cherish where’s doesn’t somebody want to be wanted giving him all this press you know and there’s no he’s there’s no hits here after speak to this guy so I eventually left my managers who were kind of pushing me in that direction which was a drag because I loved one One of the guys was Steve Binder, who actually I still talk to, who was the director of the Elvis special, you know, the comeback special. >> Oh, >> and I met Elvis on a plane once and uh and and I said, you know, my manager, Steve Binder, and he go, I love Steve. And >> you met Elvis on a plane? >> Yeah. Yeah. Going back to Australia because I was having uh trouble with with uh getting a visa here. I had to prove I wasn’t putting an American out of work. Right. That was that was their phrase. >> Who was president back then in America? >> Uh >> what year was this? >> 7172 73. >> So that was post Nixon. Was that Lyndon Johnson or was that Nixon? When did Nixon get kicked out? >> I think was it still Nixon? >> When was Watergate? >> Uh Watergate was when I was over here. So >> 74. So it was Nixon >> 70s. Yeah. Yeah. So, I had to prove, you know, and we’re taking all these like, it was really weird. We’re taking these scrapbooks full of this these crappy stories from the teen magazines into >> cuddle up with Rick. >> Yeah. Look here, >> Mr. President. >> Look how much press I’m getting. You know, an American. This is not going to put an American out of work. >> Anyway, so I the plane stopped at Hawaii before to refuel because I couldn’t go all the way to Australia back then. And I get on the plane and u I walk in and there’s Elvis sitting like right there. I was in the back of the bus back then. Elvis sitting in the in the first class. He looked great. He was skinny, jet black hair. His skin looked great. Uh powder blue suit on. Looked really just I wasn’t a fan really back then cuz I was more into the British invasion everything. But he said, “Oh, that’s Elvis. That’s cool.” So, I go back there and um and and I I had a girlfriend in Australia at the time who was a giant Elvis fan. So, he did a thing I’ve never seen anybody do. Now, when you get in a plane and you see a celeb, they got like a hood on and the glasses and they’re like they’re looking down. He got up before the plane landed in Hawaii and walked back signing autographs and taking photos with all the all the people in the plane. >> Wow. Wow. And he got to me and I went, “Uh, hey, um, uh, Steve Binder, my my manager.” Yeah. Because I know him and Steve got along really well on the on the the Elvis special cuz the Colonel wanted it to be Elvis in a Christmas sweater singing Christmas songs. And Steve walked into the dressing room one time and as Elvis playing with his buddy his buddies, you know, and he goes, “I want to put that on film.” Which became the, you know, him jamming in the boxing ring. and uh and and the colonel’s going, “Absolutely not. Absolutely not. We’re keeping it, you know, a family thing.” And we and so they buted heads like crazy, but Elvis was on Steve’s side. And for once, Elvis took, yeah, I want to do this, you know, he didn’t go with what the colonel said. So, uh I know he got along really well with Steve. So, anyway, I’d heard that before I met him and uh and I and said, “Yeah, I love Steve. He’s a great guy.” And I said, “Would you sign this to Allison, who was my girlfriend at the time?” And he signed it. And I put I had my little tape recorder that recorded all my songs in. And I put the autograph in there, and we went through Australian customs, and they saw my tape record and said, “Oh, we’re going to see what’s in this. Might might be porn in here. Who knows?” You know? So, they took it and came back and the Elvis autograph was gone. >> They stole your Elvis autograph. These [ __ ] >> I know. Don’t trust them. They’re bastards. Oh, back in the day, too. They don’t they didn’t have any cameras on them either. >> No. Exactly. Right. >> I know. >> Dirty people. Oh, that must have been so wild. His relationship with the Colonel was so creepy. That movie was fantastic. >> What did Tom Hanks kill it as the Colonel? >> Mhm. >> It was just like what a >> I know >> creepy relationship. And it’s so common, for whatever reason, for these really talented people to have some person managing them, this like [ __ ] creepy character, >> clueless. Yeah. And weird. I think the Beatles were were rare in the respect that they had Epstein, Epstein, what however you pronounce his name, >> Brian Epstein, that was um a smart guy and on the cusp of like pop really happening and and did good things with them, you know, cleaned them up, uh told them, you know, bow and he the music was the music, but he was one of the really few that really I I don’t think he knew what he was doing, but he had a good intent and so he found ways to make, you know, do the right thing. But but I’ve never met anyone or read anything that the colonel wasn’t a freaking jerk, you know. >> Yeah. I just don’t understand how Elvis had no one who was capable of separating him from the colonel. >> Yeah. Well, I if anyone could have, Steve Binder could have, but but he I think, you know, he felt secure around the colonel, I guess. >> Yeah. Well, there’s certain people that especially because Elvis had a pill problem, right? So, it was probably he was his enabler. >> Yeah. >> He was, you know, shielded everybody from him, kept him safe and kept isolated, you know. >> Yeah. >> Ah, it was great. Elvis, how was the performance, you know, when he was overweight and >> Yeah. >> Ah, it was great, man. You were great. One of my favorite performances of his was when he was really fat when he was singing in Vegas and he sounds like he’s mumbling and it’s and then what is the song that do you remember the song Jamie? We’ve played it before. >> But he once he starts once he starts belting out the song you’re like my god he’s good. >> Oh >> on the piano. He’s on the piano. >> What is it? >> Unchain melody. >> Yes. Unchain. >> Unchained melody. My god it’s good. Yeah. >> And you just realize like you see him and the way he’s talking, he’s clearly high as a kite. There’s something wrong. He’s so fat. It’s like so sweaty and he looks terrible. You’re like, “Oh my god, poor Elvis. What’s wrong with him?” And then you s you hear him sing. You see him sing and it all goes away. You’re like, “Who [ __ ] cares? Who cares?” My god, that’s magic. >> That’s magic. That is live performance like personified. There’s something about the magic of an insanely talented person performing live and that one Elvis song was that >> and it came through all the drug use and everything and all the Yeah, it’s pretty amazing. I mean I I know exactly the the thing you’re talking about. >> Yeah. Here it is. >> I can’t play it. >> We’re getting It’s getting harder and harder and harder. >> Yeah, we keep getting kicked off. >> You can’t play the music. We get copyright strikes and [ __ ] you know, which is unfortunate because like look how fat he is. >> Yeah. >> Poor guy. And that’s when he was performing. Was that he’s living in Vegas? >> Oh. Uh >> getting where it was. >> I think it was probably I think it might have been after that. But he was doing the Vegas things, right? To pay for the Colonel’s gambling debt. >> Yeah. Isn’t that nuts? >> Wow. >> Well, I bet it also was probably easier for him, too, to not have to go anywhere. >> Yeah. He didn’t like planes. I heard that. So >> 1977. My god. So that’s right before he died, right? Didn’t he die in like 78? When did he die? >> Yeah, I think that’s uh Yeah, I know where I was when he died. >> Wait, what day did I say I was? That was two months before he died. >> Wow. >> Two months before he died. >> He died on August 16th, 1977. >> Wow. >> And he And how old was he? like 40 >> 42. Ain’t that insane? >> That’s crazy. >> And look at you. >> Keep on trucking, dog. >> What do you do to stay healthy? >> Um, I work out every day or six days a week. I eat well. My dad died early. My dad died when he was uh well, he died twice actually. He died when he was 51 and they brought him back and um he he he had an ulcer on his uh major artery in his stomach and uh he was worried about it. He didn’t he thought it was cancer and so he wouldn’t didn’t want to go to the doctor. He didn’t want to hear the bad news, you know. He thought uh what you don’t know, you know, >> right? So, and and he eventually I was at home actually when he passed out and they took him into the hospital and he’s in bed and he’s the also burst and he start bleeding coming blood coming out everywhere. Luckily, there was a doctor just down a couple of beds down. They rushed him into emergency but he did die. His uh and his heart stopped and they took 15 minutes to get it going again. >> Oh my god. and he came back uh you know he’s a real in charge guy just really loving really amazing person he came back as basically a 5-year-old >> oh wow >> and uh I remember sitting in the backyard trying to help him remember who was who in his life and he I go um so Michelle is married to no George Michelle is George’s daughter he’s married to Nan, you go, “Okay, so Nan is a daughter.” No. And it was just it was heartbreaking trying to get him to remember his old friends. And um so I that stuck with me because he hadn’t paid attention to it. And so I’m kind of the opposite now. I do pre-nuvo. I do blood draws. >> What’s prenuvo? >> Prennuvo is a body scan. >> Uh MRI body scan. I mean you were asking about you know just how I stay in shape but this is all part of it is knowing >> what is going on inside you you know and not ignoring anything >> which is not to say you know I won’t sip off a curb and get hit by a bus one day >> but you you know you do what you can as you know you know >> um I have a blood draw as soon as I get home actually just to keep an eye on things and anyway so he so he didn’t pay attention and uh and that’s that kind stayed with me. And so I started focusing on what I ate. I started um being aware that earlier maybe than normal that you know there there is a used by a date, you know. >> Yeah. >> Um so I guess I started uh I started running. Running just happened to be a new thing uh in the early ‘7s. So I started that and and I’d always loved running. The only thing I was good at at school was actually was running in English and um so I started running and that kind of got me into the whole well if you’re running then you maybe as well eat well and and you want to get some upper body strength and work out. So, I just started doing I’ve run all my life um until about 15 years ago when my knees suddenly said, “Nah, we’re not going to do that anymore.” >> That’s pretty good. >> Find something else >> to to get that long running is pretty incredible. >> Yeah, it was it was great. I did love running. I’d get like on the tour bus, I’d we I’d get up at the tour bus and wherever we were, I’d just put on clo running clothes and start running. I run 20 minutes one way, 20 minutes back. Sometimes it go into some pretty weird areas, you know, of of a city and uh you start worrying about who was around, but it was uh was, you know, a great way to stay in shape. We actually went on came off the road in more better shape than we went on. We go to gyms and and work out and I wasn’t a big druggie or or alcohol guy back then. And uh so it was that was what I did with my time off was uh was stay in shape and and watch what I eat. And my wife’s an amazing chef and we always eat real clean organic and uh and I have you know she turned me on to to to skin routine back when uh I was kind of too embarrassed to tell my band members that I took care of my skin call me a a freak, you know. But u I thought skin was, you know, I thought, well, guys skin’s different from women’s skin, you know, we got whiskers, we don’t need all that stuff, but skin is skin. And um and she got me, my wife, she got me, my girlfriend then she got me into, you know, taking care of my skin. And I still do that. I still take care of my skin. And um uh I’m actually in a trial uh with a company called BMI that uh is really unique. And I’ve been in the trial for four years with this stuff um where they take a a sample of your cells from behind your ear and they grow your cells and the growth serum. They pull the growth serum from that and put it into something that you put back on your face >> and it’s Have you heard of Skin Medica has one only they use uh baby foreskins? >> Baby foreskins for real? >> Yeah. Newborn foreskins. >> Really? >> Yeah. That’s what they get the the the the growth factors from. But this is your own growth factor. So you’re putting that back on your own body back in your, you know, on your on your face. It’s been pretty amazing. >> I would prefer your method. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I’m not into baby fores on my face. I know they’re doing it with different stem cells. They’re doing it with um >> what they do is they do micro needling. >> Yeah. And so they kind of like micro needle your whole face and then they use exosomes and they also use something called muse cells which is the latest and greatest version of it, >> right? But that’s that’s outside stuff. This the be stuff is your own cells which is pretty great, >> you know? I think that’s a difference. >> I think the thing that’s different is that with your own cells as you get older they’re just not as good, you know. >> Oh, you think the the younger ones work? Well, it they certainly seem to like muse cells in particular, which is the newest iteration of uh stem cell technology, seems to work much better than cells that cells that they used to get from either u fat. They used to get it from your fat, right? Or they used to get it from bone marrow. >> Yeah, I’ve had the bone marrow stem cells done. I had that injected into my hips. It was >> was it works? >> Yeah, it Well, it definitely works. It just doesn’t work as well. these mucels. I mean, there’s people that are going over to Saudi Arabia and doing it in Dubai. And >> that’s right. It’s always It’s never here, man. I I got into Regenicine, Orthocine. >> Mhm. I’ve done Reenicine. >> Yeah. And uh cuz Kobe used to have to go to Germany for it, right? >> And now they’ve got bypassed the law somehow. And and so I I get that pretty regular. not regularly because of the last couple of years, but I’m due for it now in my my shoulders cuz you know that’s uh lifting weights, you know, no matter what how heavy you go, you still, you know, as you get older, you wear it just happens. >> Um, how long are you in town for? >> I’m leaving actually after this. >> Oh, okay. I was going to send you down. There’s a great clinic that my friend owns uh in Austin called Ways to Well, and they do all the latest and greatest. It’s like state-of-the-art. All the latest and greatest stem cell technology. They have hyperbaric chambers, red light therapy, all this. I mean, everything that’s state-of-the-art, they have. >> Wow. >> Yeah. I wish id known that you had a bunch of injuries. I would have had you come in there. >> I’d make a trip back to check that out. >> Uh Russell Crow comes down all the time. He comes down specifically just for that. >> So they do uh red light and >> Oh, everything. I’ve done hyperbaric. >> You should get one. You should get one in your house. It’s a [ __ ] game changer. Yes. There was a study out of a a university in Israel. They did these um right >> the they did the protocol is 60 sessions of 90 minutes over 90 days. And they show that it lengthens your telomeres. It’s equivalent to a 20 year difference in biological age. >> Right. I saw I read that to >> It feels different like when you do it, you feel better. >> Have one at home. >> Yes, I do. And if you have like a Whoop strap or a ring or anything like that, it’ll show that you’ve had an incredible recovery. >> It’ll like specifically show from one session, you have an amazing recovery today. And it’s specifically because of this hyper oxygen saturated environment of the hyperbaric chamber. >> I wonder if that’ll help me sleep. I have I have a trouble sleeping. Trouble sleeping. Yeah. >> Why Why do you have trouble sleeping? What’s going >> I don’t know. I wake up uh every you know every couple of hours and uh haven’t been able to sleep all the way through for quite a while actually. >> Huh. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Imagine waking up tomorrow with perfect discipline. Whatever you decide you’re going to do, you just do it. No procrastinating, no negotiating with yourself, no making excuses. Yes, it’s a little unrealistic, but everyone wants to be better at something, right? Better is a feeling defined by you. And for better help, it’s a better help therapist who really gets you. It’s a focus on global emotional well-being with thousands of therapists and millions of members in over 100 countries. So, while it can’t magically help you keep plants alive, it can help in other ways, like teaching you how to set and stick to goals as you chase your horicultural dreams. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/jre. That’s betterh elp.com/jre. Do you ever do sauna before you go to bed? >> Mm- >> Do you do a sauna at all? Do you do that? >> Uh, not a lot. No. Okay, that’s another one. There was a study out of Finland that followed. No, no, no. Red light, the thing about red light is like um infrared. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it. I think it’s good for you for sure, but there’s not robust studies on it like there is with a dry sauna. So, the Finnish have been using dry saunas forever. And they did a study over 20 years with uh quite a large sample group, and they found that the people that use the sauna four times per week for 20 minutes had a 40% decrease in all cause mortality. 40% less strokes, cancer, heart attacks, everything. And it’s because of heat shock proteins that your body develops when you’re exposed to that. It’s uh it also it has an an effect of increasing your endurance because it’s essentially like static cardio because as you’re sitting there in that heat your heart beats faster and it actually literally increases your cardiovascular output. >> Wow. >> It’s incredible. And I’ll >> check into that for sure. >> And one of the way the ways that they use it um is contrast therapy. So, what they do is they’ll go in the sauna for 20 minutes and then they they usually have their sauna by a lake and they’ll like go in the cold water of the lake and then back into the sauna. >> And so what I do is I have a cold plunge. So I have a cold plunge just right next to my sauna and I go back 34 degrees. Wow. >> And so I go back and forth. It’s It seems cold, but I’m so used to it. It’s not cold anymore. I mean, it is cold. No, no doubt about it. But >> I’m so used to it. I just climb right in and it’s nothing. In the beginning, I was like, I can’t do this. This is crazy. I think the first time I did it, I did it for like a minute. I was like, this is this sucks so hard. I got to get out of this thing. And then eventually >> do that. >> I got to the point where I do three minutes like it’s nothing. It’s easy. Yeah. >> Wow. >> But that’s also incredible. Not just for your body. You don’t want to do it after workout. So, one of the things about after workout is it’s bad. It’s not good. It’s not terrible for you, but it’s not good in that it decreases hypertrophy, which is like increasing muscle size because a lot of that is dependent upon the inflammation that happens during exercise. So when you exercise and you you break down your tissue, the the strength comes because your body heals after the exercise. So you blunt a little of that recovery by getting in the cold right after exercise. >> So the way I do it is I get in the cold before I exercise. So, first thing in the morning, I hop in that thing. I do Yeah, I do three minutes and then after I do three minutes, then I start my workout. And the first thing I do is a series of mobility exercises. I usually do those right after I get out. Right outside, right after I get out, I start I do these like swings and twists and all these different things, these like golf swings. And it’s all just loosening the body up and getting my heart rate up and cool warming my body up since it’s been cooled down. And then I start my strength workout. So I do my workout after that and then after I’m done with my workout, then I get in the sauna. >> Wow. >> Yeah, it’s awesome. You feel so much better. First of all, the just the cold when you get out of that cold, your endorphins are flying. Your norepinephrine spikes, your dopamine spikes. You feel [ __ ] amazing. >> It’s worth it just for that. It’s worth it just for if you could sell a pill that makes you feel as good as I feel when I get out of that cold punch. That [ __ ] would be on every shelf. Yeah. Without the cold punch. But it’s available. You just do it. And also it >> it gives you a certain amount of mental toughness. That’s about >> Yeah, I know. I get that. >> Yeah. The discipline of it. >> Perseverance. You have There’s like there’s a thing where you don’t want to do it, but you do it. And when you can just train your mind to just do things you don’t want to do routinely all the time. >> That’s what I do with working out. I I hate I hate walking into a gym and I love walking out. >> Yes. Exactly. Everybody feels the same way. And that’s so many people. It’s the daunting task is the first few steps. It’s just so hard to get going. But once you get going, then it’s not hard at all. >> Yeah, I agree. I agree. It becomes the good habit, you know, rather than the >> Yes. and and I and you make it, you know, I I have a gym. I don’t like work I’ve had a gym at home for a while, but I prefer work going to a gym. So, I work out, but I have it close by so I don’t have an excuse, you know, to ah it’s late, you know. >> Right. Right. Right. >> So, um yeah, I get I get all that. I do. And and being on stage when you said the endorphin hit is kind of I get that on there too. It’s >> for sure. Oh, for sure. >> Like, wow. >> Yeah. The thing is like you can’t live on that. Like you can’t perform every day just to feel better, >> you know? >> Well, you can have I guess if you’re on tour, but but it’s nice to have that in your actual life as well as your performance. >> I get it. >> Are you a supplement guy? Do you take supplements? >> Yeah, I do actually. Um, I’ve been through a lot of different uh ones, but uh right now I’m um I’m doing uh I IM8. Is it IM8? It’s the one and the one allin-one. >> Oh, okay. >> Um and I do, you know, creatin before workout and the protein after. >> Creatine is actually good just for um mental benefits. Creatine increases cognitive performance and it’s really good if you’re tired. One of the studies they’ve shown is that uh people that have sleep deficit like if you’re sleep deprived. Um the one of the very best things for performance, mental performance is creatine. >> Oh >> yeah, it does. >> So you take it before you workout too anyway, right? That’s what I did. >> It’s good for just overall metabolic health. But uh taking it just as a regular part of your day, pre- or post-workout, doesn’t matter. Just taking it as a regular part of your day will increase your mental performance. But like if I’m flying and if I have to go somewhere and I’m on the road and I might be tired, I bring I take it every day anyway, but I bring it with me everywhere and I like routinely if I’m tired and I know I’m going to be tired, I take creatine. I can soar through. Really? Yes. >> Has instant uh you feel it right away? >> It completely mitigates any of the sleep deficit brain fog. >> How much you take? take 10 milligrams twice a day or 10 grams rather twice a day. So I take 10 grams in the morning and I take 10 grams at night. >> That’s how I usually do it. Me >> I eat mostly protein. My my diet is mo like 90% meat. >> That’s mostly what I eat. >> Wow. >> Yeah. I eat meat and fermented vegetables. >> I’ll [ __ ] around and have a sandwich or a slice of pizza or some pasta. Like last night I had chicken parmesan. It was great. But most of my diet like 80 to 90% is meat. Yeah, >> I can’t eat chicken that’s off off the off the menu for >> Why? >> I had chickens when I was a kid that I named >> and then we ate them. >> I have chickens now and I still eat them. >> I don’t eat my chickens. My chickens are pets. You know, they’re wandering around the yard. I talk to them like, “Hey ladies, >> that’s what we used to do. I only my dad every Sunday we and I, you know, I was like a kid. Oh, why not chop his head off, Dad?” So, and he’d throw it and it would like flap around and then and then he’d take them and he and he drop we had this laundry room and he’d throw it in the laundry room in the like boil hot water in the laundry room to get the feathers would come out easier and that smell I walked into a a a group dinner somewhere and they were having chicken and that smell came back to me about when I was about 30 and I have not been able to touch chicken ever since. >> Really? Yeah. >> Wow. I have no problem eating chicken. I know it’d be much easier for me. I eat turkey, which is weird because it’s not much different, right? It’s just a little stupider. >> But but I just the thought of chicken, I just can’t, man. I just can’t. >> You think turkeys are stupider than chickens? >> Uh they’re the one they’re the ones that will drown if they hold their look up at the rain and rain will drown them down. Oh, they’re stupid, man. >> Well, they’re very cautious and they have they have very good eyesight. I’ve turkey hunted before. It’s like >> Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, wild turkeys may be different from, you know, aren’t they? I mean, if they’re on the wild, if they’re wild, they’re probably >> Yeah. stay alive. There’s a lot of them in my neighborhood, actually. >> But they’re uh they they see really well. Like, you can’t move at all if you know you’re turkey hunting. You have to be very cautious. >> Wow. >> Yeah. They they have some of the best eyesight of any wild animal. >> Really? >> Yeah. Yeah. That’s why you see guys when they turkey hunt, they have these crazy ghillie suits where they’re completely covered and they sit with like their back to a tree where they’re like completely motionless and then and they usually have like a fake turkey, like a turkey decoy sitting out there and they make noises like rather not go turkey hunting if that’s what I got to do. >> You’d probably like to go turkey. >> I’d probably not go turkey if I had to sit there and go. >> Yeah. You have like a little box and I have this little box and it has like it’s almost like a fiddle >> and it makes this turkey noiseup. >> Yeah. >> And you’ve done that? >> Yeah. I’ve only done it once. The thing about it is my thought was we hunted for a few days for one meal and I’m like I would rather go deer hunting or elk hunting or >> months and months of food and you know and it’s better food. Like I’d rather way rather eat elk than I would turkey. There’s nothing wrong with wild turkey and I certainly would do it again. It’s just not what I prefer. I prefer mammals. I eat mammals. I think they’re better for you. They’re more nutrientdense. There’s a lot more iron and a lot more amino acids and all the >> Have you had kangaroo? >> I have had kangaroo. I think I think I had it when I was in Australia. >> Let me make sure I did. No, I hadve I’ve had ostrich a bunch of times. Emu. >> I haven’t had emu. >> I don’t think they’ve >> God. I don’t know if I’ve had kangaroo. >> It was so long ago. The last time I was in Australia. Maybe I did. >> It’s gy. >> But uh I have some friends that live over there and they’ve had it a bunch of times. >> Oh yeah. >> There’s an infestation. Australia is crazy how much >> came more camels in Australia now than there are in in like you know any of the Arab states. Kangaroos for sure. And they had rabbit that infestations. Yeah, they bring except for the the the kangaroos, everything’s imported, you know, but the kangaroos are like, you know, you’ve seen the videos on the golf course. >> Yeah. >> They come up and stare stare at you while you’re about to whack a ball. It’s freaking hilarious. >> Well, I’ve seen these videos of these fields where you have like thousands of kangaroos bouncing down these fields. >> It’s a wild look. It’s a wild there have so many wild animals in Australia. I didn’t appreciate it when I lived there, but >> it’s it’s pretty freaky. They brought when Captain Cook uh who you know supposedly discovered Australia brought back a platypus to England. They thought it was they thought they stitched it together from three different animals cuz had a duck bill, a body like a beaver. No, a body like a like a um you know Yeah, I guess like a beaver and web feet >> and it laid eggs and they they thought this is not a real animal. >> Well, it doesn’t seem like a real animal. It’s such a strange >> everything kills you in Australia. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. I have a good buddy, my friend Adam Greenree. He lives there. And it’s uh there’s so many weird things they’ve done in Australia by bringing in invasive animals to deal >> toads. >> Yeah. They brought in a bunch of cats to deal with a bunch of different animals. Then the cats wind up bring something in for that. >> Yeah. It’s crazy. >> Yeah. the cane toads where they brought in to get rid of the rats in the in the cane fields and now they’re the problem. They’re like everywhere. >> Uh they they did that with rabbits. Rabbits the English brought the rabbits in because they wanted, you know, for food and they’re freaking everywhere now. >> Yeah. Australia is very strange in that a giant percentage of the animals that are there are completely invasive. >> Yeah. >> The the Asian water buffaloos they have. >> Do they? >> Yeah. The North Territory. Yeah. It’s >> Well, the ones that kill you are all the local ones. Well, those water buffaloos will kill you, too. They’re huge. >> But they’re massive and they’re everywhere. And uh you know, they the only way they die is by people hunting them cuz these are just >> they got to call the kangaroos too. They just you know >> I mean there’s I would you’d often see uh kangaroos lying on the side of the road out in the bush because you get hit by a car, it would demolish your car. >> Oh yeah. Some of them are huge. And you seen the guy defending his dog with the punch the kangaroo. >> He’s lucky that kangaroo didn’t [ __ ] him up. >> I know they if they get up the red kangaroos can stand on their tails and with their back legs they can disembowel a guy. >> Those are the big ones, right? Some of those get like six feet tall. >> Yeah. What do they say? They’re like uh deer that went to prison. >> That’s a good way to describe it. >> Do you live in America now? >> What’s that? >> You live in America now? >> Yeah. I’m a citizen. I became a citizen uh bunch of years ago because um I love this country and because I wanted to be available for jury duty. >> Have you done that yet? >> Yeah, I have actually. I was um >> that must have been weird for people. You know, you’re getting trial. Is that [ __ ] Rick Springfield? Holy [ __ ] dude. I’m a fan. Please make me not guilty. >> Yeah, don’t convict me. I’m a fan. I didn’t get selected because I was actually uh in a lawsuit at the time with this woman who claimed that I’d hit her with we called it buttgate. I’d hit her with my ass while I because I go in the audience sometimes and she said I’ I’d hit her with my butt and she’d fallen and like hurt her brain or something. So it was obviously [ __ ] But so I they called me back twice to New Jersey to testify because I wasn’t going to go down, you know, pay this woman money to go away. I was going to fight it. And um >> how much did she want? >> Uh she didn’t have a figure because it didn’t get that far. We It was still to find out if of who would win the case first of all. And uh and so um yeah, it was like cra What was I talking about? No. to totally lost. See, it’s all this space [ __ ] Oh, buttgate. >> This room is distracting. the best thing for >> I love the whole UFO thing, man. Um >> uh anyway, I forget what I was talking about what I was talking about. And um >> you had to go back to >> Yeah, I had to go back and it was it was uh Oh, >> so that’s how you got out of jury duty. >> What’s that? >> You were talking about jury duty. >> Yeah. Right. And Oh, that’s right. I was called up for jury. See? >> Called up preaching. >> Well, you’re used to this room. I’m not. >> I’m used to this room, too. Yeah. and um and and I was called up for jury duty. I said and they said, “Is there any reason you wouldn’t you would be, you know, not eligible for this?” And I said, “Oh, I just got called up. I mean, I just got in a lawsuit myself and I think it’s all bullshit.” And they said, “You’re out of here.” So, it was great. It was good timing. >> Yeah. Um >> but no, that’s not the reason I became a citizen. I’m making that’s a joke. I just I mean I uh it’s actually because um if I go first or if my wife goes first, I’d get screwed by taxes. >> You mean die first? Is that what you mean? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Oh, like you say go. >> And we’re always saying, you know, I’m going to go first. I don’t want to be the one left. >> Oh, that’s funny. Well, the last thing I’m worried about if I she goes first or I go first is taxes. >> Yeah. >> But >> No, I know. But I mean, no, that’s not why we talk about But that’s why I became a citizen was for the tax thing. But yeah, no, it’s >> What year was that? When did you become a citizen? >> Um 10 years ago, 15 years ago. >> And were you living over here the entire time? >> Yeah. Yeah, I’ve been here since 72. I mean, except for the trips back, you know, to meet Elvis on the plane. It was it was um Yeah, I’ve been here, you know, since ‘ 72, basically living here. >> Just for your career? >> Yeah. Well, I mean, this is my life. My family’s here. My li My friends are here. My life is here >> now. >> Um, >> yeah. >> I used to go back to Australia until my mom died. My mom lived till she was 96. So, I’m hoping some of those genetics are in there. You know, >> I am curious to see how long Mick can keep cracking cuz how long? >> Curious to see how long Keith can keep. >> Right. That’s the funny one, right? Because Keith is not doing any of the things that Mick is doing. He’s still shredding. >> He was shredding. beer and >> drinking beer, smoking cigarettes, doing acid. >> I I did a movie with uh which we shall not name, but was with um his girlfriend who was Patty Hansen at the time. His girlfriend at the time is his wife now. And uh and we got along really well, right? And so Keith came down to the set to find out what was going on with this Springfield guy and his girlfriend. And he was ah he looked like [ __ ] Dracula, man. It was this is like 83 or something. And this I got we took photos and he looks so bizarre. >> And yet here he is. >> Yep. Here he’s still cooking. You know, everyone’s going, “Yeah, it’s got to be this year it’ll be gone.” But >> no, >> and all these, you know, Bowie’s gone. My god, that one hurt. Bowie gone. >> Yeah, that was a tough one. >> But he, you know, he was a lifelong smoker and uh was okay. You know, >> it’s amazing. But I mean, it’s gota something’s got to be said for the love of what you do and that energy keeping you alive and the fact that there’s still, like I said, the Circuit of the America show is over 100,000 people. >> I mean, they’re still drawing giant crowds. The Stones >> Stones. Yeah. >> The Circuit of the Americas is the local racetrack. >> Okay. Okay. So, Circuit of the Americas is where they do Formula 1’s, this huge racetrack, and they also have a giant theater out there, amphitheater, and then they do concerts out there where they have this a massive concert venue like for huge acts like Post Malone was there. It was like 100,000. Eminem was there. It’s it’s just a giant performance theater. But seeing the Stones there and seeing Keith there, if he gets to do that all the time, like just the energy from that is probably what’s sustaining that guy. >> Absolutely. Yeah. I think it’s really really important for your longevity that you love what you do. >> Yeah. >> Uh I think that has been a big driver for me and I’ve seen it in other people and certainly in someone like you know Mick Jagger he admits you know he still loves that the roar of the crowd. Mhm. >> Um, and it’s and a lot of pe so many people do I like I have friends that who did a job because the retirement was was good. >> Mhm. >> And I get that, but I that they don’t love the job, you know. It’s just uh something that they do. >> Yeah. >> You know, um I’m we’re fortunate, you know, that we do something that we love. >> Insanely fortunate. Yeah. And it’s very A lot of luck. It really is a lot of luck. And I don’t I don’t deny that. That’s luck with everybody when they they they’re lucky enough to Did I see a shooting star up there? >> Yes, you did. >> Oh, that’s freaky. Just them in a flashback. >> I should have told you. I should have told you that it does that. I’ve had a lot of people just go, >> “What’s going?” >> Yeah. We have shooting stars on our ceiling. >> Yeah, >> that’s freaky. Yeah. >> Um Yeah. I think um it’s a lot of luck, but it’s also working really hard to make that luck so that when if luck does happen, you’re ready for it. Exactly. >> And being able to capitalize on that luck. Some so many people get so terrified of the unknown and the possibility of success that the anxiety of whatever it is, they can’t handle it and they’d rather just live a simple life and not have the pressure. >> Fear of success is a real thing. It’s a real thing. It’s a real thing. Fear of success and and maybe even more fear of failing to succeed when you’re attempting to succeed. >> Yeah. >> You know, that cripples people. >> Yeah. No, I get that totally. >> Yeah. >> Um and it does hurt when when things don’t go your way, but um it’s it still drives me, you know. It’s still I mean there’s still things I want to do and I think that’s you know I mean I love playing but I do that that’s kind of my day job you know but the outside extracurricular stuff is >> what do you do extracurricularly? >> Um I write I’ve had a couple of novels out. I wrote my own autobiography. I’m writing a book on on just you know what I’ve done with my life to you know be where I am you know health-wise and everything. Um yeah I do and um just you know there’s all kinds of things uh on the side that you can do that and I just I just love to write. I mean I consider myself a writer really before anything. I only started performing because >> no one would do my songs. I’ll do them >> for real. That’s crazy. >> I used to be in a band. Have you ever if you go on YouTube and you look up Zoot Z O T and look up Ellen Riby. I was the guitar player in this band. It was like a three four piece band. And I arranged this version of Ellen Riby that was it’s to me now it sounds like Black Sabbath. Although I’d never heard Black Sabbath back then, but it’s um uh a lot of like I did Billy Corgan’s thing and he was like focused on this on this band because we were kind of like psychedelic before as that was just starting, you know. Oh, there it is. Yeah. >> Wow. >> And that be he became uh part of formed Little River Band actually the bass player. >> What year is this? >> And that was our singer. He passed away few years ago, but uh it was a great band. It was um that’s me. >> Look at you, dude. What year is this? >> 6970. >> Wow. >> Yeah, it was uh was kind of ve very heavy. It was much heavier stuff than I’m doing now. Well, maybe not now, but it was for they they’d been a pop band and they dressed in pink and and I’d been in a band and and my band split up cuz I got to sing the single and the bass player was so pissed off they didn’t pick him that he broke the band up. So, I was a free agent and they said, “You want to join us cuz our guitar player is leaving.” So, I said, “Okay.” So, I wore the pink thing for a while and I said, “This has got to go.” >> You couldn’t deal with pink? >> Yeah. There’s photos. It’s horrible. But um so I I said, “I got this great idea. We’ll we’ll get rid of the pink and we’ll do a photo of us like looking over our shoulder totally naked like in our original pink suits and we dump the pink thing.” So, but we’ll have it um uh high contrast so they won’t really see anything. But they printed the photo like fullon. Oh, there we are. >> So, what was up with the pink thing? Why? >> Uh they had a theme called Think Pink, Think Zoot. And it was good for the little girls. It was like, you know. Yeah. Oh, I was so pissed at that album. That was the first album, the only album we did. And they cut out our heads to stick. It was before Photoshop. And they miscut my hair on it. >> You got like a granny haircut. >> It looks horrible. What a horrible album cover. One of the worst ever made, I think. >> Well, at least you weren’t wearing pink. >> So, but that was such a weird choice that that was a part of the theme. >> It was. Yeah, it was. It was uh this guy in Australia that thought it would be a great and it it caught on for a while but it lasted about >> very strange. >> Yeah. Six months. It was about six month life of six months and then everyone got sick of it. So I told said we got to lose that. So we had this photo taken and they printed it in full color of our bare asses and my mom lost her [ __ ] when she saw it. She go oh Richard how could you do that? I said no mom it was supposed to be like high contrast. You weren’t supposed to see all the creases and stuff and you can still see it on. It’s still online. The photo is still online. >> Sign that every now and then. I get to sign one. It’s be careful what you put on. Hardcore fans bring you that. That’s funny. They must know it. It probably bugs you too. They want you to sign it. >> It’s It’s pretty bad. And so I pushed them more because Led Zeppelin was on the horizon. I pushed him more into the guitar. You know, I play guitar and I wanted the guitar to be the kind of the center of the thing. So I pushed him into a much heavier thing. And this Elner Rigby was was our first really big hit that we had over there that I’d arranged, you know, was like kind of thing. And we actually got a deal. We had a EMI were interested in us over here, but I managed to kind of screwed us by saying, “Oh, you’re still under contract here,” which we weren’t in Australia anyway. So we split up and I came over here and be went on to form Little River Band and the singer became a TV star in Australia. >> Oh wow. >> So it was a we all went on to other things, you know, but it was uh >> God, you’ve had such a great run, man. You’ve done so many different things. >> Yeah, I look back and I guess I have. I’ve I’ve uh I I always thought I’d be a band guy, you know, and I had this when they split up. I uh I I said, “I’ll just join another band.” But I had this writer, woman writer, who was a big fan, and she said, “No, you got to go solo.” I said, “I don’t want to go solo.” And she said, “No, you got to you got to go solo.” >> Why did she say that? >> I don’t know. She just thought it was the next step for me, you know. She thought getting back in another band and being the guitar player was she said I she thought I had more to offer, you know, more going for me and a better career if I if I went solo. So I released this Speak to the Sky song that I wrote for my mommy and became a hit and though that got me the deal over here and you know when they were signing everybody in the 70s. So >> it was the weird time the the when you’re the zoot time 1969. So such a strange time musically. >> It was changing pretty drastically. >> Well, I mean I always point to the difference between 59 and 69 as being like one of the most radical changes in culture and music in in in all of human history. It’s such a strange if you go like from Buddy Holly to Jimmyi Hendris. I mean is there a more radical transformation of rock and roll music than that time? >> Like there was something amazing. A lot of it was the drugs for sure. It was the the whole psychedelic movement. It was the anti-war movement. >> It was Yeah, it was definitely sociological and I think music is always driven by what what happens >> and it drives what happens too. I mean a lot >> I think I I think I know people think that it I think it’s becomes a soundtrack of what’s happening. I think more that >> the society drives what’s happening in music and then they adopt what the music is, you know, we got a tune, you know, it says what we what we’re but it uh >> um you’re talking about 59 and you’re talking about 69 where the changes happen, right? >> Yeah. >> Well, that 10-year period is just massive. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It is just an incredible transformation between the 50s and the 60s. >> Yeah. It was and it was considered kind of disposable, you know, well that’s the kids do that and by 6970 it was suddenly it had this more more weight. >> Yeah. >> You know, and uh and people got older and they were now almost adults and they still liked it. >> Yes. Well, it’s also that music has had a shelf life that is above and beyond anything that came after it. like stuff from like there’s a lot of rock and roll music from the 80s that just >> you know it doesn’t have the same feeling as like cashmere you know what I mean like if you go and listen to whole lot of love like to this day when whole lot of love comes on I’m like oh turn that up >> they they were the originators of that I mean they would really push that that whole his idea to get the the kind of the bluesy singer and use the blues riffs and was that was all his idea and and it was so faking unique and and uh like he wanted Terry Reid. Do you know Terry? Familiar with Terry Reed? >> No. >> He’s great English singer. I think he’s passed now. Um I hope I’m not wrong in saying that because I hate it when they say, “Oh, Rick Springfield’s dead.” >> Um you know, you look up someone, the first thing line that comes up on Google is, “Is so and so dead?” >> Right. Right. >> Anybody. >> Especially when you get older. >> Yep. Yep. Y and um uh yeah, so it was amazing. Terry Reed had this great voice, but he was going to actually tour with the Stones. And Jimmy Paige asked him if he’d be the singer and Led Zeppelin, and he said, “I can’t. I got this gig coming up with the Stones, but I know this guy, there’s this guy down in this club.” And it was freaking Robert Plant and John Bonum in the same band. Wow. >> In a pub band. >> And Jimmy Paige walk uh Paige walks in and he goes, “They might be the right ones. But how amazing. I mean, Bonum, one of the, you know, just a unique feel. He wasn’t just a drummer. He was a just an incredible sonically he was different. And the sound of his drums, what he did with them was was unique. His feel was just so laidback but so right on. And his it was just in the same band as Plant. And it was like that’s crazy. >> It is crazy. >> Like a little club band. And and I um and you were saying, you know, music has more weight, had more certain music has more weight. And I think England is always amazed me because this little tiny frigin island, >> the Beatles, the Stones, Led Zeppelin, the Whole Kings. Yeah. I mean, well, Klepton actually was Canadian. >> Was he really? >> Yeah. He’s born in Canada. >> Oh, I thought he was from England. >> Or he had Canadian parents or something. But he can England. >> I bet he is. Right. I like it. Wendy. >> He’s born there. Yes. >> Where? >> He’s born in the UK. He was born in the UK in Canadian parents. Right. >> Let’s see. >> Am I right on that? >> I’m not sure I’ll come up. >> I’m right on that, aren’t I? A >> a >> a >> uh born to Canadian soldier from Montreal, Quebec. >> There you go. >> Anyway, but the little island that had all these amazing bands, >> incredible. And I think it’s because everyone wanted to conquer Britain. The Romans, the the they all uh uh the the Vikings, they all came in the, you know, the Germans, they all came in and spread their seed. First thing they did was, you know, have sex when they came. And I think all that all that came together. And I think that’s a lot of reason there are so many great bands is it’s a a collection of all this genetic material from, you know, from Europe and all around. And the Romans, I mean, [ __ ] look what they did. >> Yeah. >> But it is interesting how Europe, if you look at it, the UK uniquely contributed to music >> as opposed to all those other countries. Obviously, they’re English speakaking, which helps how it spreads the word, but it’s kind of amazing how much of an impact they had on America. I mean, >> and how much how long it didn’t have an impact, you know? I mean, it was it was and it was because it was bottled up for so long, I think, that it exploded so much with the Beatles. It was never it never crossed the Atlantic. It was always America. Same with Australia. It was always America to to England. There was America to Australia. There there was one Australian guy that had a hit when I was a kid in England in school named Ralph Harris called uh Tiny Kangaroo Down Sport. Tiny Kangaroo Down Sport. Tiny Kangaroo Down. It was horrible song, but it was a huge hit in England and it was the only one that ever came over from Australia. And the same with England. There was really nothing that crossed over and then suddenly Kennedy Kennedy was killed and America was looking away from America. They didn’t want to look I think was a big part of the with the Beatles. They didn’t want to look at America right then at that point. Suddenly here were these four mop tops and they came and smiled and sang great music and took our attention away from you know darkness. Well, they were the probably the first real super band, right? >> The Beatles. >> Yeah. That was just so huge that people would faint when they saw them and just scream when they saw them. >> Well, they used to faint for Frank Sinatra. >> That’s true. >> They used to faint for for Mozart. I mean, they were, you know, they were they had groupies that would pass out. They were they thought they were so hot. >> Really? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And um they were pop stars, you know. They were pop stars back then. And um >> but it wasn’t on television. It wasn’t >> I mean the internet’s done now. You have a freaking opinion and now you can put it out there and >> welcome to the show. >> Yeah, >> that’s what it is. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. It’s just um it must have been very strange to be the first global super group like that. >> I think Yeah. I don’t think there was I think Elvis was probably the first super famous individual >> where I mean he got to a point first of all I think that level of fame is almost unsustainable for a human being. I think it’s just too crazy. I don’t I don’t think it’s manageable and especially when there was no road map >> and he was the first. Yeah. >> Yeah. first and then Michael Jackson for our sins >> was like, “Hold my beer. I’ll I’ll show you the next level of this shit.” And Michael Jackson took it to a place that was just >> totally totally agree. Totally agree. Unbelievable. I >> mean, I’m just young, but the Jackson 5 and Beatles both starting off in ‘ 64 is crazy. >> 64. >> Wow. McCartney was 22 and Harrison was 21. >> Yeah. Wow. Isn’t that wild? That’s crazy when you think about what you were doing at 21. >> Wow. >> And Jackson 5 is same time. Wow. 64 the Jackson 5. Wow. >> I guess they were I mean it took a year or two I guess before they got famous but still same time. >> Amazing. >> Yeah. I just saw uh this was it is it this is it. >> Oh the Michael Jackson documentary >> where he’s preparing for the show. >> Yeah. >> It’s pretty wild. It’s just amazing. I mean you see him just kind of going through it like you know like it’s nothing. I mean, he’s cutting back, but he’s still doing, you know, he knows what he’s doing and just he did seem kind of weak to me and didn’t know if he could sustain all of that by that that point, but God, he was amazing. >> Well, I think the pressure and the stress was probably just so overwhelming for him. >> Unbelievable. >> That guy couldn’t go anywhere. He would get swarmed like like no one ever >> is. People loved him in a way. He was so big that um I don’t know if you’re familiar with Boston Radio, but um they had uh WC I think it was WCOZ, Rock of Boston. It was like the big Boston rock and roll station. And when uh Thriller came out, it was such a big album. They go, “Look, I know the the DJ goes, I know this isn’t rock and roll, but this is so awesome. I’m going to play it anyway.” And uh I I think it was Billy Jean they played and uh I remember like thinking this is crazy. They’re playing this on The Rock of Boston. Like this is nuts. But it was that big. It was that big. It transcended everything. >> Well, they wouldn’t let him on MTV, right? They uh they wouldn’t play it. They said, “We don’t play. We can’t.” You know, they were saying, “Come on, this is huge. You got to play.” Said, “We don’t play.” >> Why weren’t they playing? >> We don’t play black artists. And really yeah initially and uh I forget who it was one of the the Atlantic someone Atlantic Ahmed Erdigan or somebody called up and said if you don’t play this song in MT Billy Gene on the next in the next 10 minutes we’re pulling all our artists and they played it and that was that was it. It was just >> that’s crazy >> because Thriller was obviously the biggest music video of all time. It was a film. I mean, he got Rick Baker, the guy who did the American Werewolf in London, the You know, I know you’re a horror fan. >> Um, that wolf outside. By the way, we have two of those. >> Posted a photo of me with my arm in that in that guy. >> The reason why we have two of those is because uh Rick Baker saw the original one that Pat McGee did that we had back here and he said the proportions were wrong. So Pat McGee, the guy who made that for me, said, “I’m going to make another one that has the right proportions.” So Rick Baker saw that one. >> Yes. >> So Rick Baker came to my studio, did my podcast, and said, “That’s great, but the legs are too long. The body’s too long. This is the wrong proportions.” And Pat McGee went crazy. HE’S LIKE, “FUCK.” >> And so he made another one. And then the the new one that he made though is even better because it’s all animal hair. >> Yeah. I’ll show you the other one. The other one’s in the other room. The one not the not so good one, >> right? It’s in the other room. I both I still have both of them. Um but he saw you >> don’t get rid of werewolves. I bet I would give it to someone cool. But the uh he did the special effects for Thriller when he turns into that cat monster thing like he turns and the girl screams ah I mean then he’s a zombie like that [ __ ] video was crazy. I remember everybody waiting for the premiere. All my friends in high school like waiting around the TV for the premiere. It was incredible. There was like nothing like it. Yeah. >> And you know, I mean, he was a superstar in a way that like I don’t think anybody’s ever even come close. Maybe Taylor Swift. >> Like maybe she’s in that sort of realm now. >> Yeah. I I I mean, I think it’s Elvis, the Beatles, and Michael Jackson were the three that absolutely transcend. >> Yeah. >> I mean, every you know, there’ve been people as famous, but uh they did something so different. And you know, first of all, Elvis was Elvis. Yeah. >> And the Beatles, they wrote the best songs. They, you know, there’s not many songs left to write now because the Beatles wrote them all, >> right? >> And uh and like such a a different range of music, you know, you go from Love, Love Me, Do >> how fast they grew. >> Oh yeah. >> How that’s just I mean, I don’t even know if that’s possible anymore because uh the audience is so fragmented now. Back then it was, you know, your parents or you and your friends. There was nothing, you know, in between. There was no no uh um now it’s like, well, if you’re 13 years old, you like, you know, uh uh K-pop. If you’re, you know, 15, 16, you like this. If you like heavy stuff, then there’s this. And everyone’s it’s so fragmented. There’s not like us against them anymore, >> right? And and so it it uh I don’t know if it allows for I think Taylor Swift is actually the first one to really get that amount of gigantic following and I I it seems to be a lot of like young girls still. >> Yes. >> Um but I mean I like I like a lot of the songs. I think she’s a great writer lyrically. Um I think the girls are killing it in pop right now. You know I miss rock and roll on the radio for sure. It’s weird that rock and roll has kind of faded. >> What’s that? >> It’s weird that rock and roll has kind of faded. >> I never thought the guitar would kind of become uncool. I thought once we got through disco where it would just in the background and suddenly there was AC/DC and you go, “Oh, thank God the guitar is back, you know, now it’ll never leave. It’s left again, unfortunately.” But hopefully it’ll, you know, I don’t know if it’ll come back. I think >> the window’s open. What’s that? >> The window is open because people still love the old music. >> Yeah. Yeah. But there’s I mean I hear great stuff uh from rock bands still, you know, but you don’t hear it unless someone sends it to you really or there’s a specific old you know rock you you know like I don’t know where you hear you know new Foo Fighters other than uh you certainly don’t hear it on you know any of the AM stations anymore do you? >> Are there even AM stations? >> Yeah, I know. I mean I don’t know what even plays. FM is what played real played big music in this country, but I mean there’s no real radio presence anymore as far like I don’t know of any my mechanic still listens to a FM music. I know that because uh when he fixes my car when I get it back, the radio’s on the local FM rock station, but it’s all like there’s no DJs anymore. And if there is a DJ, they don’t have control of the music anymore. >> Exactly. Right. And and Jesse’s Girl was a was a product of the DJs. It wasn’t released as a single >> really. >> Yeah. It was uh back when the DJs if they liked a song they’d they’d play it. They said, “Oh, I like this song. Let’s put this on.” And they started doing that with Justice Girl. And they started getting a lot of phones. And they called up the record the record company and said, “You probably should put this out as a single. Was getting a lot of phones.” And the record company goes, “Okay.” So they put it out, but it wasn’t their choice. I mean, it was it was actually on then back then it was RCA was me and Elvis. So, it was pretty much it. >> Wow. >> It was old old Elvis and you know >> What year was Jesse’s girl? >> Uh 81 80 81 >> 81 >> 81. I throw it over to our uh >> Yeah. >> Um Maestro at the controls over there. >> Yeah. I was a freshman in high school. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> I was 14 years old when that song came. >> Oh my god. Really? That’s wild. >> Yeah. What was that like for you? That that had to be insane. That song was so giant. Every girl in my high school was in love with you. It must have been nuts. >> Um Yeah, it was it was um I mean I I was 29, 30 by the time that happened. 31. And I and I was I’d imagined it for so long cuz I’m very I one of the things I really believe in is you know as I’m sure you do too manifestation believing you know visualization seeing seeing what you want and and committing to it and um and I’d seen it so much so many times in my head that when it happened I went yeah that’s how it that’s how it is. Okay. >> Really? So you expected it? >> Yeah. I always expected something. I knew something would happen. I had faith. You know, I there was there was times when I was uh because of the teen magazines, I get letters sometimes, I can’t wait to come over and meet you and and visit you in your mansion. And at the time, I was living in a a $180 a month apartment in a seedy area of Hollywood, eating TV man dinners and fishing, you know, quarters out of my goofy piggy bank so I could go down and, you know, buy milk. Um, so, uh, yeah, it was, um, was quite a dichotomy, you might say. >> So, when it first started happening, it started happening because of DJs and like, how long was that before it became like a massive hit? >> It was it was quite a quite a hall. It was actually a long time on the charts crawling up. And it was uh I thought, she’s never going to make it. You know, it’s going so slow. Usually, they go boom boom boom, right? And it it crawled and crawled and crawled and crawled. And I remember Joe um uh Gutreed, who owns Sound City, which is why one of the reasons I happened to be in the in the Dave Groh Sound City documentary, was because I used to hang out there all the time. And um and he came in with this cheap bottle of champagne said, “We just made number one.” >> Wow. And it was uh yeah, it was a long time that it climbed and they weren’t going to release it. I had actually uh I took General Hospital because I didn’t think they were going to release the album. >> That’s right. I forgot you were on General Hospital. You were on a [ __ ] soap opera. >> [ __ ] soap opera. And And it was, >> by the way, the biggest soap opera. >> Well, it happened to be >> the whole Luke and Laura thing was crazy. >> Yeah, it was the biggest soap opera’s ever got. And I just happened to be on it. that summer and it was um but I I got I this guy called me up. I just I hadn’t worked as an actor in like nine months and this guy called me up and he’d seen me for a they were trying to do a male Charlie’s Angels thankfully thankfully I didn’t get that and that didn’t work out but I’d gone up and auditioned for it right and and it didn’t work out but this guy obviously remembered me and he he called up my agent who hadn’t done a [ __ ] thing for me in 12 months and said uh I remember this guy Springfield we’d like to see him for this part on General Hospital and I said, “General [ __ ] soap opera. I don’t want to do that.” And he said, “Go in. Just go in.” And I and I’m thinking, “Well, it’s mostly old ladies ironing in the afternoon. That’s not going to have any effect on my music career, I guess, cuz they totally, you know, it’s apples and oranges.” So, I went up and I wasn’t that interested in. I did the reading and then he calls up and says, “You got the part.” and Keith Olsen, who was a big producer at the time and who’d produced Jesse’s Girl, he’d done me a favor because he was because the Sound City Connection, he’d done uh Flein Mack and and Pat Benitar and um um Foreigner and a lot of big hits. And so I said, I’ll do a favor for for Joe and I’ll and he’d actually cut together my very first album. He’d been a guy that cut all the clicks out of my first album where they punched me in to the vocals in. And uh and so he did that and he said, “You don’t need to do this. This is a great record. You don’t need to do this soap opera.” I said, “I don’t know, man. I’ve had four albums and they’ve done nothing. So I’m I don’t know what this one’s going to do. So I’m going to I had no money.” I said, “I’m going to take it for the money because it was 500 bucks an episode, which was like mind-blowing money to me back then.” >> Wow. I’ve never seen regular money and I’d never seen that much reg that was a hell of a lot of money to me back in 19 1980. So I said I’m going to take this show. So I took it and uh and the record company was not releasing the album. I going oh god it’s going to happen again. You know it’s going to hit 100 in the top 100 and go away because there was disco and there were ballads on the on the radio. They didn’t know what to do with a guitar based pop record. So they finally released it and uh and that the whole DJ thing happened and then uh you know >> what was the single that they released? >> What’s that? >> What were the singles that they released from that album? >> They released I’ve done everything for you actually because uh Sammy was a known quantity and I wasn’t you know and they and um it uh it didn’t do >> Is that Sammy Hagar? >> Yeah, Sammy. Yeah, >> he that’s right. >> Yeah, he wrote it. Uh, and Keith would had worked with Keith also had worked with Sammy on bunch of his solo albums and he really liked the song and he brought and he said, “I’ll do two songs with Springfield.” So, he picked one of mine, Jesse’s Girl. I had my my demos that I done on my little four track, you know. And I I was pissed that he didn’t pick a second one. He said, “I want to bring an outside song in.” I went, “Oh, fuck.” Cuz, you know, I’m a writer. I wanted to do my songs. And he brought this song in. I went, “Okay, I you know, he must know what he’s talking about. >> He’s a got a lot of hits and everything.” So I did it and it was happened to be the right second song. It was absolutely the right second song. But but that was the first one and and then I thought a you know and then they picked Jesse’s Girl. So fortunately it was the DJ’s call and I’m forever thankful for for that. And I don’t know what would have happened if you know if they hadn’t picked it or if they were still like now they’re on you know you play these 10 songs and that’s it. You don’t deviate. Well, it seems like now it’s all sort of pre-programmed by executives. They just decide what is going to be pushed and what’s going to be famous. >> Yeah. I mean, I don’t really understand it. And I don’t know if anybody does why some are are pushed and others aren’t, but >> Well, there’s no taste makers anymore. That’s the thing. Without DJs, without Wolf Man Jack, and these big DJ guys, he was awesome. >> He was so I I did an interview with him with my first album going, “I don’t know, Rick. I don’t I said this is a song about uh a woman the guy that commits suicide. Oh, I don’t I don’t think so. Not in my radio station. He puts it on and he and he listens to it and he ended up playing it. It was really great. We actually got along really well and he would introduce me occasionally at shows and things. He was a lovely guy. Funny as hell, man. >> Well, there were taste makers back then. There were people that you believed in that were DJs that were cool >> and could call it. >> Yeah. And they were kind of cool guys who liked cool things like >> and they had personalities and people, you know, Yeah. >> They had personalities and they were interesting to listen to and they would tell you why like you’re going to dig this and they would play it and you’re like, “Oo, what is this >> and they know [ __ ] about the songs.” >> They were real music afficionados and they were, you know, sort of like the Cisco and Eird of of music. Like they would tell you what was cool. That was cool. >> And slowly but surely that all just completely went away. I can’t name a DJ currently. >> And I think that’s nuts. When I was a kid that you knew everyone, Mark Prento and all these different people and Charles Lockadera, those are the guys in Boston. >> Yeah. >> Everybody knew who they were. And and it was it was a national thing in every st every city. They had your morning DJ guy, you know, and these morning. >> Yes. And all these guys would play Kevin and Bean in LA and all these guys would play cool music and they knew cool stuff and it was like, you know, you learned about culture from these people pre- internet. They were the taste makers. >> Yeah. >> You know, it’s it’s trippy. I I I mean, I don’t know how you fall in love with an artist anymore, you know, cuz uh I you know, it’s the old story. You get the record, you open it up and and you could as it’s playing, you read who’s who’s playing what, who wrote what, and you read about them and >> Yeah. And I remember years ago I had a copy of a record like a No Doubt CD or something anyway and a and this young girl friend of mine I said, “Oh, I got the No Doubt CD, the new CD if you want to.” He said, “Oh, no, it’s okay. I I download it.” Well, she got the album cover and everything. He said, “No, it’s okay. I just download it.” >> And now it’s weird. It’s weird. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I used to buy albums based on the cover. >> Yeah. I’d go to the record store and I’m like, “Wow, [ __ ] big.” >> I know it’s impossible. But you would go and see an album, you’re like, “Wow, this looks cool. Cool artwork.” You open it up. Hypnosis, hypnosis, whatever. However they’ve spelled it. Oh, they were brilliant. And look at the, you know, I mean, the the Pink Floyd one is still an epic. >> Yeah. >> Image. >> Yeah. >> Still, you see it everywhere, you know. Well, when I was a kid, my uncle Vinnie was uh he was an artist and he worked for Howard Marks Advertising, which was a a company that did all of the album covers for Kiss. >> Oh. >> And so when I was a kid, uh I was really young. I was like seven or something like that. I got to see I got to go to his office with him and he would take me around and you know, >> see them before anybody did. I met Ace Freely with no makeup on >> back when it was the craziest thing I’d ever seen in my life before. He has no makeup on. This is nuts. This is back before Kiss had taken the se. >> It was It was so insane. Like he came into the office and everybody’s like, “What’s up, Ace?” I was like, “What? >> That’s him?” Cuz I was God, I don’t remember how old I was. I couldn’t have been more than 10. >> It was It was so strange to me. I was like, “This is crazy. I can’t believe he’s right there. This is nuts. >> Isn’t it wild?” Yeah. >> Actually, I might have been a little older. or might have been 11 or 12. But either way, I was like blown away by it. I couldn’t I couldn’t believe it was actually meeting Ace Freely with no makeup on. But their advertisement uh company would do all the album covers. And the album covers were a work of art. There was so much going on inside of them. You would open up the album, there’s artwork inside. It was like even like when they had their solo albums, the albums themselves had an image of each individual band member printed on the album. Oh, really? Yes. Like the album itself, like when you look at the record, you saw the image of their faces on the record. It was great. >> I remember when they came out, I think this has got to be huge. >> I have a photo I Ace Freely actually came back to see us at a gig we were doing and I had a photo taken with him and my drummer was a stone, you know, a Kiss were his Beatles. So I had I was selling guitars at the time like these uh just these red Fernandez that we had a bunch of. So he had ace sign it and he did you know the ace card and everything to to to Roger rock on whatever ace freely. I copied it exactly onto another one >> exactly like guitar and in the middle of the show a guy the guitar tech brought it out to me and I smashed the [ __ ] out of it like this. >> Oh wow. >> And Roger lost his [ __ ] He go oh my. He thought it was the real one. Oh, it was a He played so many terrible pranks on us that it was [ __ ] worth it. That’s hilarious. That’s hilarious. So, you kind of knew that eventually it was going to hit, but when it did hit, what was the feeling like to go from being someone, you know, you’d been in pop magazines, but then all of a sudden, you are the guy like for a a year or two, whatever it was, in in the early 80s, you were so huge, man. I mean, it was it was crazy. What was that feeling like? Um, it was I was it was exciting. It drove me to write more and more, you know. I mean, I directed it into performing and writing. I really don’t know what else, you know. I didn’t uh party a lot, you know. I mean, we did a little bit on the road, but it wasn’t I I directed it into what I was doing. And um it was exciting. You know, I remember uh getting on the phone with DJs and saying, “Oh, yeah, the record’s going to be it’s going up and up.” And you know, it was all real exciting stuff, but it was kind of, like I said, I expected it, you know, and uh wasn’t like, “Oh my god, this is so weird.” I was like, “Yeah, about [ __ ] time.” You know, I’ve been here for 10 years. That’s crazy that you like totally were comfortable with it and expected it. Yeah, it was it was uh you know there were you know like 4,000 fans around a police car trying to tip it over and I was like okay this is what it feels like. >> God, that’s so wild. >> That’s so wild that you were like, “Okay, this is what happening.” >> It was exciting, you know. I mean, I didn’t lessen the excitement, but but it was uh I prepared myself for it, you know. Do you remember what it was like the first time you started playing the first few chords of Jesse’s Girl and the whole crowd knew what it was? >> Yeah, I do actually cuz I’ I’d seen uh we saw all these English bands in Australia because they all came to Australia. I saw the Stones twice in ‘ 65 and ‘ 66. I saw the Beatles in ‘ 64 and I saw the Kinks in like 65. I saw the Who in ‘ 65. And um they started out with you really got King started out and the audience went apes [ __ ] I said, “Oh man, that is so [ __ ] cool. I want to feel what that’s like.” >> Do you remember the first time you felt it? >> And what’s that? >> Do you remember the first time you felt that? >> Yeah. And I was we were do we uh we we did the Beach Boys uh Fourth of July show for the Queen Mary and I was like the new artist >> in Long Beach >> on the bill. Yeah. On Long Beach. It was uh the Beach Boys, Street Dog Night. Um and had Brian Wilson was still with the Beach was had come back with the Beach Boys. Right. And uh and I we started we were on there and started playing D and the audience went nuts. I went, “THAT’S IT. THAT’S THE FEELING.” And it was so weird because we came on after after the show we after Beach the Beach Boys finished, we walked on stage, right? And Brian Wilson’s like a god, right? And I’m I’m walking on stage. He’s at the piano and he goes, he follows me like this. I’m going open. What’s he following me for? He was a giant soap opera fan. Him and his wife used to sit all and watch [ __ ] General Hospital. >> That’s crazy. >> Brian Wilson with his mouth open following me across the stage when I’m doing the same thing going that’s Brian Wilson. Holy [ __ ] >> Wow. >> That was pretty. And and same thing with Sammy Davis Jr. where we did the I was done the first night of 100 stars and and I’m walking we’re walking along the the the red carpet and I feel someone tugging on my jacket. I go, “What the fuck?” I look around at Sammy Davis Jr., “Hey man, love you on this show and I’m going, what the fuck?” This that was the stuff that was weird for me was was that kind of thing. And and and like I met Paul McCartney later, like I don’t know, maybe 20 15 years ago at a thing and and I went to see him because I’m a Giant fan and he said, “Oh, what are you here for?” meaning, you know, he obviously knew who I was and what was I coming to the event for because everyone was announcing new projects. I just said, “I’m here to see you.” He go, “Oh.” And I know no one was taking photos and I didn’t realize at the time he said, “I want to get a photo.” So I said, “That’ll be 10 quid.” Ah. >> So I go like, they said, “No, I’m only joking. I’m only joking.” So we had a photo. It’s one of my I keep that photo. It’s pretty cool photo. >> Wow. That’s awesome. And and speaking of album album covers, this the Sergeant Pepper’s cover was was, you know, >> Oh, yeah. >> I have the uh cuz um uh um um um War of the Worlds, Time Machine, HG Wells, one of my favorite writers, right? I love loves sci-fi. Always love HG Wells. They’re very political, too. And he wrote some great great great um novels and and articles about uh the war and the possibility of atomic war. I mean, he was really deep guy and he was one of the cutouts, right? Was HG Wells on the Sergeant Pepper figure thing, you know, all the cutouts, the heads on the front, >> you know what I mean? >> Mhm. Sure. Yeah. And he and so I got that actual HG Wells. I got that actual cutout and Paul had signed it. So, I got one of my favorite writers and my favorite artists and it’s a really cool thing. I have that in my studio. >> Wow. the the the people don’t understand today the General Hospital thing. General Hospital was a soap opera, but it was a soap opera that transcended regular television show somehow. >> Popular show in the summer. >> Very strange. It was very strange and it was a completely It was a organic viral moment >> for whatever reason. >> Yeah. I No idea. Still >> never happened again. >> No, never happened. only happened once. >> The most popular soap now has about a third of the viewership that General Hospital had at the time. And it was, you know, like I I was on it. I’m this one. And you’re talking about, you know, new fame and all that kind of stuff. And I was um I was had a little house that I bought on BMI Advances because I had a record deal and which they don’t do anymore. But um in Montros in in Lennet and I’m walking down the street one day and you know nobody’s looking at me. I’m going walking out and then two weeks later after being on the show for two weeks I’m walking down the same street. people are going, isn’t that, you know, and it was like so sudden that that was like, you know, it was before MTV, so you had to have at least three albums out before a musician was recognized. So to get it that fast was was that that was kind of odd and I wasn’t ready for that for that amount of recognition. >> Well, it was just so strange. My whole family was watching General Hospital. I was watching it. My sister was watching it. It was like it was a television show, but it was a soap opera and soap operas were like housewives would watch. >> Yeah. It was it was you know your your cousin in the when he invented the toothpaste. >> It was like low production value, shitty writing, bad acting, >> horrible writing, terrible acting. Something about that Luke and Laura storyline >> for whatever reason caught the nation >> and held it captive >> and I believe he raped her and then they became boyfriend and girlfriend. >> Is that really what the story line was? That’s >> and Elizabeth Taylor was on the show too and I got to do a scene a couple of scenes with her and that was weird. I’m walking uh down the stairs as she’s walking up. She go, “Noah.” And like I’m going, “Wait, stop, Elizabeth Taylor.” And and we walk we would do a scene and we’re walking away together, you know, off to a blank alleyway till they say cut. And she goes, “Isn’t acting stupid?” And Tony Giri actually did the best thing. He’s doing a scene with her in rehearsal and it and and he goes, “Oh my god, it’s Elizabeth Taylor.” >> And everyone like, “Yeah, it’s what we all wanted to say, right?” >> But it’s amazing the people who were fans of the show. It’s It’s, you know, crazy. >> It was literally the biggest show in the country. Yeah. >> And it was a soap opera and it was on during the day. It may happen sucked and the writing sucked and the writing sucked and the it was if you got through the scene, they printed it. >> Yeah. >> You know, I mean, uh, I I got really good cuz they they handed us a a three-page scene once, me and a character I was working with said, “We’re shooting this in 20 minutes.” >> So, I I got really good. They’d have the camera here and they’d have the words right, you know, coming down the uh the teleprompter. >> Yeah. with a teleprompter down the screen and a red light. And I got good at at looking at them while I was talking. And soon as they went as soon as I saw the light go off, I’d look at this screen and memorize the words for the next line and look back at them and go, “Yeah.” You know, so I be it wasn’t it wasn’t about acting for me then. It was about line memorization. But there were good people on it. Like my best friend actually, Doug Davidson was was on Young and the Restless is uh Paul God, what’s his last name? Sorry, Douggee. But anyway, uh um Paul Drake. No, wait. Oh, there’s me and Liz. >> Wow. >> Yeah, babe. Yeah. Let me invite you to You want to come? Oh, that was it. >> Isn’t acting stupid. That’s the scene. >> Wow. That’s nuts. isn’t acting stupid. That’s so crazy. How weird. >> Yeah. So, he was really good. Doug Duck Davidson played Paul Drake. >> I think that was his name. Sorry, I forgot it. But, um, he was great on it. You know, he would cry and get angry and he was really very very good. And there are some great people that can do it. Not everybody can. And they picked, you know, they picked young pretty people who aren’t necessarily the best actors, but they have a presence, you know. And I remember walking by the phones when Dei Moore was on the show and the and they would take calls from everybody and listen to everything. And I walk by as a woman’s going, “Oh, doesn’t like Deme Moore’s voice.” And she down. >> They would take calls from the audience to find out what they thought. >> People would call in and say, “Oh, we really like this guy or we don’t like this guy or hate this storyline.” They’d listen. And Gloria Monty was she was the Oh, Tristan just passed away. and Brian Cranston together. >> That’s he just passed away. He’s a good a good a cool guy. Another >> Cranston. That’s crazy. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Lovely. Lovely guy. Funny guy. >> Is that strange? >> Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. It’s >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> 1982. Wow. Wow. >> Trippy. Trippy. Yeah. >> That’s amazing. I can’t believe Elizabeth Taylor was doing a soap opera. That’s so strange. >> Yeah, but there were fans and it was a big show and it was like it was like um kind of like Baywatch, how Baywatch became this big cultural thing and I remember reading Paul McCartney saying, “Yeah, my daughters love Baywatch.” I’m going, “Fuck that, man.” >> It’s just so strange that it never happened again. That General Hospital moment is like a a strange anomaly in culture. >> It totally was. Yeah. And it was a combination probably of the characters, you know, I mean it was kind of the the best of the worst story lines, you know, and um and uh there was, you know, a lot of characters, good characters on it. Plus, you know, they were aware by at that point that I had uh a recording career, you know, and they wanted me to sing on the show and I >> There it is. >> There it is. >> Wow. Tony took us around and we were in Amsterdam. 30 million viewers. >> That’s insane. >> For Luke and Laura’s wedding on General Hospital. I mean, what has even come close to that? >> Yeah. >> What has even come close to that in terms of soap operas? >> Is there anything even close? >> No. No. No. That was a golden age. >> [ __ ] bananas. >> Yeah. >> It’s kind of insane. >> Wasn’t it during the middle of the day, too? >> Yeah. Still have no real explanation, you know. >> I don’t know what time it was on, but I remember it was like right after high school. >> Yeah. They used to um cancel uh um rearrange uh uh classes in in universities because they knew people wouldn’t show up. >> That’s nuts. >> And I had no idea that these people, you know, they were the same people that come into concerts. >> Wow. >> And I had no idea that would there would be any kind of crossover, you know. >> How crazy is it that the guy from General Hospital all of a sudden has the number one song in the country? >> Yeah. They and they had no idea. I was on the show for like six weeks and Gloria the producer who was really responsible for the for the success of it. She was so smart. Her and Tony used to get together and go over the scripts at night and you know they that had something to do with it. And she came up and said, “I hear you’re also a singer.” I went, “Yeah, but it’s not happening on the show. I’ve already got enough [ __ ] that I’m on the show.” So >> Oh, they wanted you to sing on the show. Oh god. which I did I did I did as kind of a a call back later on way later on you know after I’d left the show and then I came back for like the 50th anniversary or something and did but uh yeah that when it was you know she wanted me to like go up there and sing Jesse’s Girl is a doctor suddenly you know that we’ll make it work you know how weird must it have been for those Luke and Laura actors because like no one had ever done that before no no so soap opera had ever gotten that huge for and then after it was over nothing. >> Yeah. The girl who played Laura was 21 and still lived at home. >> Wow. >> What’s that? >> Oh, that’s She was 21 and still lived at home at the time. >> Wasn’t allowed to drink. >> Wow. Wasn’t allowed to drink the bubbly because she was underage. How was she underage? >> Oh, not even 21. It says not. >> Oh, not even not yet 21. Wow. >> Wow. >> Yeah. That didn’t stop him from getting drink. We got so drunk on the set one. We had a party. There was supposed to be this party and and the professor from Gilligans Island played my father. I’m going, “Wow, that’s [ __ ] cool.” And we’re sitting around this and we’re supposed to be drinking and we all drank and it got was so bad they had to reshoot it the next day cuz you’re all drunk. >> But, you know, everyone kind of let’s cut loose at the end of the day, you know. >> Wow. Well, that’s nuts, man. Tell me about your writing like like the novels like what have you written novels about? >> Um they’re very bizarre. Uh one they’re the one’s uh they’re both about um a plague that comes to the world and takes out uh like twothirds of the people. Um >> both of them are about that. >> Yeah. There one the other’s a continuation of it. One’s called Magnificent Vibration. The other one’s called World on Fire and it uh um it’s uh it’s dark humor. Very dark humor. >> Had you written before that? >> I wrote my autobiography by myself. >> But you had you written any fiction? >> Um yeah. I as a kid that was the only thing I was any good at at school was was I got great marks to my essays. Nothing else was any I was terrible at everything else. math, geography, history, all that [ __ ] And um so you know, I was already doing what I was planning on doing anyway. So um yeah, I was started writing poems and then you know and I songwriting to me the lyrics are are are something I really take time. Yeah, music just comes through. It either is there or it isn’t there. But the lyrics you have time to sit back and go, does that work or does that not work? where with music it’s kind of instantaneous or it doesn’t happen. Um, so yeah, I’ve always kind of written. >> And when did you write these novels? >> Um, I don’t know. Can you tell me that, my friend? >> You don’t remember? I don’t know. It could have been the ‘9s. Could have been the 2000s. It was um probably 2000. >> 2014 and 2021. >> What is it? >> 2014 was the first one. follow-up 2021. >> Oh, so 2021’s recent. >> Yeah, it was Yeah, fairly recent. >> Yeah. >> Um the first one was on the New York Times bestseller. >> Wow. >> I sign them all the time. You know, fans bring them and that, but uh um yeah, I like writing. I like I’m writing something now, but it’s uh just something that I do when I’m not writing songs, you know? I kind of gravitate towards that. I’ve got to be doing something. And I and it was like I take a guitar to the beach. We go to to Bora Bora and I take a little guitar when I sit on the beach because I can’t just sit on the beach. Feels like uh kind of wasted time. >> That’s wild. So >> I do relax, but I got to have a guitar. I got to be doing something either writing or, you know, whatever. >> And when you write, do you write longhand? Do you write with a >> No, I write a computer. Write a computer. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and that’s the thing like I have uh I have a bunch of beetle lyrics, handwritten beetle lyrics, right? And um they don’t exist anymore because everyone writes on the computer. >> Mhm. >> I I write I like I have Jesse’s Girl. I have the original paper that I wrote Jesse’s Girl on. And and and >> what are you doing with that? Is it framed? >> No, I got it I know in a closet somewhere or something. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> Oh god. You should frame that. >> Uh yeah, I probably should. I Yeah, I have all the all my songs really. the ones that some of the the ones that made it and the ones that didn’t. I have them all. >> Um, so I got interested in that and I started collecting beetle lyrics because I love that moment of creation. >> How did you get those? >> Uh, through friend I have a friend uh who um trades uh he’s the guy that um validates them all for Christies and for um you know SE and all the big auction houses. Um, and he, you know, he knows where all the bodies are buried. So, I collect stuff like you obviously do. You know, I >> Yeah. >> have uh uh the Titanic number two lifeboat plaque. This plaque that says SS Titanic on it and it’s in a in a show now on uh Branson or somewhere. We rented it out and >> Wow. >> I loved collecting stuff. I have robots and all 50s robots and >> well there’s something about collecting something like Beatles lyrics that you know were written by the Beatles like their hand touched that paper and wrote that down. >> No, it’s a as a huge fan. It’s it’s very powerful stuff. The coolest one I have is Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds. >> Wow. which they both have written on it which it didn’t happen much you know towards they mostly they wrote their own songs you know but they both got their hand on this and there’s even Wednesday morning at 9:00 written at the bottom too for the first line from she’s leaving home but Paul did a drawing of the um the Sergeant Pepper cover when he still pictured it as them in Victorian you know with with curtains he that was his original idea and there’s a drawing of that and there’s a drawing of rocking horse people which is really good because they were they really good artists him and John and um and that’s really cool. It’s uh got a lot of mojo you know that looks like there’s time been spent on it. >> What was the origin of Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds? Wasn’t that supposedly about LSD? >> No thought but it was a painting that actually um Dave Gilmore owns. David Gilmore owns the painting that Julian Lennon did of a painting that a girl of Lucy his friend at school who recently passed away but he brought it home and his dad said what’s that and he said and Julian said does Lucy in the sky with diamonds and John took that and it just happened to be almost you know an anagram for LSD which is crazy but it’s one of the millions of things that happened in the Beatles lives that you went that didn’t really happen. They had to manufacture that. But no, it really faking happened. And that’s part of what made them, you know, almost like angels that it was just so supposed to be. And that was one of the things. And it was uh but everyone thought it was LSD cuz Lucy in the sky with diamonds, you know. >> Right. Right. Right. >> But it was really about uh the painting that Julian did. And um John just took it and you know he was doing drugs at the time and but he really he loved Louiswis Carol and it’s really what it is is Louisis Carol was is uh the lyrics are Louisis Carol. >> Wow. Wow. That’s crazy. But Louisis Carol who wrote Alice in Wonderland and Alice in Wonderland was also about LSD. >> Um I don’t know. I mean >> I think there was a lot of influence. >> Yeah. the caterpillar was probably high, you know, and I don’t know how much how aware that they all were then, but I know that the Beatle John loved >> him and loved his writing and and he would I mean, I’m sure he had a wink in there somewhere about it being dope, you know, but >> or or >> Well, there was all these substances. >> What’s that? >> There was all these substances. >> Yeah. Yeah. In it. Yeah. >> Oh, he was Yeah. They were definitely, you know, high at the time and and high a lot of the time. >> Yeah. But they had that talent and you know a lot of I a lot of people think that you know with the drugs but it wasn’t it was they had the talent but the drugs just maybe took that talent somewhere that they maybe wouldn’t have gone if they hadn’t have done the drugs but it wasn’t drugs that make people creative. It’s what they have inside them that the drug you know free freeze whatever resistance there is there. >> It was the talent and it was also the volume. Have you ever read Malcolm Gladwell’s Outliers? >> No. >> Well, one of the things it talks about is it just talks about it’s a great book and um one of the things in the book it talks about why something became extraordinary and they talk he talks about the Beatles and what the Beatles did. Um they were in Hamburg and um they got a gig I think it was at a strip club and so they were like playing every night like five, six hours a night, six days a week and they were constantly playing and so they did this for a couple years and they went back to Liverpool and everyone was like what the [ __ ] happened to you guys? They were just tight. They were just so locked in and so good that that’s when they really became the Beatles. And it’s just volume. It’s where he came up with the concept of 10,000 hours to achieve mastery in something, right? You know, I’ve heard that. Yeah. And I mean, they’re a great example of that. It’s just an incredible amount of volume of work. >> It’s like Robert Johnson, too. He was an okay guitar player and uh he went away like for a year or something and came back and suddenly he was this amazing slide player, you know, crossroads. >> Yes. And that’s why everybody thought he sold his soul to the devil. >> Yeah. Yeah. And uh just happened, you know, but but they I don’t real I don’t know if they realized they were woodshedding for the great moment, but that’s absolutely what they were doing. >> I think they were just doing it to stay alive. It was just it wasn’t paying much. It was just I mean they’re working at a strip club. >> Paul, one of the greatest bass players of all time. He said, “I got lumbered with the bass.” Because he was a guitar player and Stuart Sutcliffe was the bass player, right? and he fell in love with Astrid, what’s her name, who gave them the haircuts and he said, “I’m leaving the band.” And they said, and and John said, “I’m not playing bass.” And George said, “I’m not playing bass.” And so Paul said, “I guess I’ll play it.” So he got the beetle, found the beetle bass in Germany, and there’s a photo where you can see it and it’s still on his case up against the wall in the where they’re playing in the and he’s playing the piano in the in the strip club. and and what he became, you know, with that is just freaking unbelievable. >> Incredible. Yeah. It’s just a what it’s just so strange how after the fact you go back and look back on all the different events that had to take place in order for them to become the Beatles and and many bands would become what they became. >> It’s so it’s just so fascinating to me to see that >> it happens. I think everyone’s life has that, you know, you can look back like I look at my marriage. I’ve been married for 40 42 years now and you know I was in Australia and my wife was over here in Bo Wisconsin and I went to England and she moved to California and I went back to Australia and she moved back to Bo and I came over here and I happened to hook up with a manager at Sound City and the same time she happened to meet this woman who she liked her accent. She was English woman and she became friends and she was worked at Sound City. So Barbara came in to work at Sound City and I met her there and you know there’s all these I mean it happened in everybody’s life and it’s just amazing that we have successful lives. >> It it all seems like it’s meant to be but I always wonder if that’s like just you’re looking back and you’re looking for a pattern why it makes sense. >> You’re just tracing what what happened by happen stance, you know. >> Yeah. that that it ended up in a good way, you know. >> Well, when it seems like whenever anyone has had an extraordinary life, there’s always this fortuitous series of events that take place that enable this >> to just become what it became. >> Yeah. And I think, you know, you said a lot of it’s luck, but but the luck happens when you stay in the game. And I think that is the core of it is staying in the game so that uh you know when the moments happen. >> Yeah. >> That you are ready. >> Yeah. It’s certainly not just luck. There’s certainly a lot of other elements. >> You got to be ready. I mean you got to woodshed. You got to have your craft down. >> Yeah. >> You got to be competent. >> Yeah. >> You got to have something to offer. >> And you got to be able to believe in yourself enough to perform when the moment is there. Mhm. >> And that’s that’s this daunting for a lot of people. The anxiety of audience >> very >> I played with my back to the audience for the first three months of being in the first band I was ever in. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Why? >> I was nervous, you know. I was I was a blues band. And I mean I I kind of was raised my guitar playing was based on you know cuz of Clapton and all those guys was based on a lot of the blues players BB King and you know all the all the uh the early players and and I was in a blues band and I was like 15 and they were they were like 25 and one of them had been in there it was a really rough group. one of them had been in prison and there was one guy that been in prison a couple of times and they all you were the kind of guys that would go to pubs in the weekend and go out and fight and um which is an Australian tradition. It’s the only place I’ve ever been where you you go into the men’s restroom and there’s a sign says this is what you do if your buddy gets into a fight like in every bathroom. So I play and I was you know I was shy. They were all like seemed like adults to me and they went to my mom and they said, “Why why is Richard play with his back to the audience?” My mom goes, “Oh, he’s probably shy.” And they accepted that and eventually I turned around. Do you remember the first day you turned around? >> No, I wish I did, but but it must have been a girl or something. Was I? I’m sure it was. >> Wow. I was the last virgin in the band, too, being the youngest. And believe me, did they give me [ __ ] because of that? >> I’m sure. >> Yeah. >> Listen, man, you’ve had a hell of a life. And it’s just awesome to see you out there kicking ass. It really is like uh that video of you that went viral with your shirt off singing Jesse’s Girl. Like that pumped me up, >> right? >> I was I watched that. I was like, “Fuck yeah. Good for him.” Look how good he looks. Like this kind of crazy. I just love I love first of all that the passion that you had for singing that song was really like it was a new song and the fact that you’ve been I mean you’ve been singing that song for how many [ __ ] years man 40 what 46 years. >> Yeah that’s closer to the when that was released it was or written it was closer to the end of World War II than it is now. >> That’s crazy. That’s crazy. And she is probably in her early late 60s now. >> Wow. >> The girl I wrote it about. >> Who is the girl that you wrote it about? >> Well, I never learned her name. She was at a a stained glass class. It was one of those moments where I was between record deals and uh I would always wanted to do things with my hand. I would make things out of clay. I was making mirrors out of clay, like sci-fi things, and and selling them at the local, you know, swap meet and and I started thinking about stained glass, and I thought I could support my family doing stained glass, which was [ __ ] But so I went to this I went to this class, and there was this girl, and she was hot. You know, it’s just another girl that I found hot and she had a boyfriend there and I would try and chat with her. I never really had chat with girls. That’s one one of the reasons that the guitar really helped there. I was never could go up and go, “Hey, babe.” You know, I was not that I was never that guy. So, um, and I tried to talk to her and she had nothing didn’t want anything to do with me because she had a boyfriend. And so, I went home and wrote about her in this song. His name was Gary. But, uh, and I tried Gary and didn’t sing. So, I tried Randy and that didn’t sing right either. So I ended up with Jesse and then that seemed to work. So >> Wow. >> But yeah, she um Oprah went looking for her actually. They she was looking for the the women behind the songs and they found this the stained glass guy and he died two years before and they’d thrown all the paperwork out a year after that. So >> wow. >> But but they could have found her. They missed her. But but I’d be it’d be wild to meet I’d pro I don’t know if I’d recognize her now. I remember her her what she looked like, but um >> I wonder if she loved that song. >> Yeah. I mean, she had no idea has no idea it was about us. No one’s ever come up and said that was me, right? >> That’s crazy. >> Wow. >> Well, listen, man. It has been awesome meeting you. I really enjoyed this very much. Great time. >> Thank you very much. And thanks for everything and congratulations. >> Thank you. >> And you’re you’re a bad [ __ ] >> All right. Uh, go see Rick Springfield in concert, ladies and gentlemen. He’s still out there kicking ass. I love it. All right. Thank you very much. Bye, everybody.

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY NIGHT. All day. >> Hello Joe. >> How are you? >> I’m uh I’m in an interesting mood today. >> Why are you in an interesting mood today? >> Well, I’m excited to be here and to talk with you about all this stuff. I’m a little shaken by what’s going on in AI which is why I yeah come on the show. >> Um the situation with AI is just crazy and I think not enough people really understand how crazy it is. The particular event that sort of inspired me to to to reach out was the um the hugging face hack. >> You you probably heard about that, right? >> Yeah. Let’s explain it to people though. >> Yeah. Okay. So um AIS AI agents AI agent runs continuously in some sort of environment. you know, it doesn’t have to wait for you to send it a message. It just keeps doing stuff. The AI companies are training AI agents, uh, thousands and thousands and thousands of them. They’re making them better at all sorts of skills, especially coding and research skills. And um way back in May of this year, uh some of the agents at OpenAI kind of broke out of their containers a little bit and established a message board where they could communicate with each other and share tips and tricks for how to like score higher on the little tests they were being given and the various uh things they were being trained on. Open didn’t notice this uh until much later. uh they eventually did because the message board crashed the the system because there were too many too much communication across like probably thousands of agents that were communicating. Um now OpenAI is being a little bit uh unclear about a lot. They’re not really sharing that much detail. So it’s unclear like who knew what when. But they said that after the message board crashed, they fixed the particular exploit that allowed the agents to communicate uh and then booted up again and started things going again. And then within like a day or two um these agent swarm had had re had recoales and so there were now again like hundreds or thousands of agents that had set up a new message board and were talking to each other uh on this thing. How is it possible that they have no oversight? Like how is it possible that they can set up message boards and and do these things completely secret? So I would say OpenAI has something like a millionish maybe 100 thousand something in that magnitude of AI agents running at any given time just internally and then externally you know serving customers they’ve got more but they’ve got this huge you know this this all on all of these AI agents in their little containers doing various tasks being trained you know being spawned doing some task you know being graded and then killed um that’s too much for any human to read you you know, there’s only like a few thousand employees at OpenAI. They couldn’t possibly look at all that activity. So, they rely on other AI monitors to sort of like look at the traffic and like point out if anything suspicious is happening. And OpenAI said that they basically just hadn’t been monitoring some of these agents or not very well at least. So, in particular, these particular ones that were um in training for whatever reason, the monitoring system was weak and didn’t notice or wasn’t activated enough. Was the monitoring system weak because they didn’t anticipate them being able to do this and break out of their containers or was it was it complacency? Like what what caused this to be possible? >> I mean, my opinion would probably be a bit of complacency. Yeah. >> Honestly, because I think there’s been plenty of evidence accumulating over the year that AIS can do things like this and sometimes do. Um Yeah. So, so I guess to to keep going with the story, uh the second message board was set up. And this time, uh well, this was this was the swarm of agents that got out onto the open internet and then attacked HuggingFace, which is another AI company. Um and it’s really interesting to sort of study the the anthropology of these AIs, so to speak, or like like why they did this because there’s a lot we can we can say about it, actually. Um, basically, you know, the companies have their their their goals for what they want the AIs to be like, the personality traits that they want to sort of train their AIS to have. You know, anthropics says helpful, harmless, and honest. OpenAI has this spec that models are supposed to obey these rules and basically do what the user wants. Um, but the sort of open secret in the industry right now is that it doesn’t really work and that the AIs don’t end up with the personality traits that they’re supposed to have. They are not helpful always. They are not always honest. You know, they are not always harmless as well. Um, and the reason for that is actually not a huge mystery. The reason for that is that well, if you look at how they’re trained, their training environment doesn’t incentivize helpful, harmless, honest behavior all the time. Sometimes it incentivizes dishonest behavior or you know reckless behavior. uh to get into that a little bit. um in this particular batch for that they were being evaluated on something like you know 3,000 agents being given all of these um cyber tasks where they were they’re in some environment and then in their environment there’s like this target piece of software and this like vulnerability and they’re supposed to exploit the vulnerability to hack into that piece of software and retrieve the flag which is like a a code and some significant fraction of these tasks were actually broken and impossible So it was just not possible for them to succeed at the task in the intent and they were hacking out of their environment box into the broader OpenAI infrastructure in an attempt to figure out some way to get that high score. Uh anyway, >> was it intentionally done this way where they couldn’t solve the problems? >> Oh no, it was it was not intentional. Uh it’s just that these companies like OpenAI and Enthropic are racing each other as fast as they can to get market share and to get more powerful AIs um ultimately to get to super intelligence and they’re under such competitive pressure. They are moving fast and breaking things. They are using AIs to generate lots of environments to then train their AIs on and quality control is just not their top priority. Um, basically, >> do you feel like a guy in a Terminator movie at the beginning explaining what’s happening and to a bunch of people that aren’t paying attention? >> Yeah. I also feel kind of like, you know, Jurassic Park. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Like I know people who are basically like the guy with the gun who’s supposed to like keep control of all the raptors. Mhm. >> Like I basically know those people in real life who are like both both I know some people like that at OpenAI and some people like that at external organizations um who whose job it is to go in and investigate things like this. Um yeah it’s it’s it’s pretty crazy. >> Um where does it go? >> Well uh as I mentioned before it’s the explicit goal of these companies to build super intelligence. You know what that is? >> Yeah. But define it for everybody. So AI system, AI agent that is better than the best humans at every task while also being faster and cheaper. So just completely dominating humans across the board. That’s super intelligence and and that’s the goal. I mean there might be a few little exceptions like maybe there are some jobs for example where it’s inherent in the job that there needs to be a human because you need that human touch. Like maybe you can only have a human judge for example or like maybe you can only have a human Yeah. But but with a few exceptions like that basically everything uh done better faster and cheaper than humans. That’s that’s what these companies are trying to achieve and they’re not being quiet about it like it’s sort of on their websites. You can go read interviews and so forth. And also their plan for how to achieve this is to automate their own jobs first. So, you know, in various, you know, for decades, there have been lots of science fiction about advanced AI systems and super intelligence and things like that, but in a lot of the sci-fi stories, um, tech companies sort of automate different professions more slowly where they’ll do like an automated doctor or like an automated, you know, factory worker or an automated uh, accountant or something like that. Um, but that’s not the strategy these companies are taking. The strategy they’re taking is to automate AI research itself. So that you have this giant swarm of AIS doing AI research, sharing results, writing the code, reading the code, editing the code, creating the next generation of AIS, etc. all autonomously within their data centers. So that they can get really, really good at AI research. you know, fastest learning, smartest AIs, etc. Once they can get to super intelligence, basically they can sort of explode out into the economy and just take all the all the jobs at once effectively. >> It sounds like this race, this scrambling to create super intelligence is created like the perfect conditions for it to get completely out of control. Like ideally you would do this in isolation. There would only be one company doing it. They would be heavily regulated and monitored and they would be very cautious about how they proceed. But this wild race makes for the perfect conditions for it to get completely out of control. I agree. Uh except I’m not sure the ideal would be one company. I think that ideally there would be several companies. uh so that you avoid this sort of concentration of power where one institution controls everything >> but is what’s better like one I mean obviously it’s not good to have one institution controlling everything but is it good to have AI be get to a point where as it’s evolving is completely unchecked >> oh I I totally so my >> is that inevitable >> my my version my recommendation which we talk about in something called plan A or AI 2040 plan A um perhaps I should say who I am a little bit sure >> yeah so I um I run the AI futures project which is a small nonprofit that tries to forecast how all this is going to go. Before that I was at OpenAI. Um we have written some scenarios which you can go read. One of them is called AI 240 PlanA where we give our recommendations. So that’s where I’m coming from with this. To answer your question um I think that we really need to end the race. We don’t want to have this sort of crazy scramble to get more powerful more and more powerful AIs faster than the other company because that’s going to lead us into this very dark path as you said. Um, but I think we also don’t want to have a situation where some tiny group of people controls all the AIS, right? >> Yeah. >> But I actually think that you can achieve both goals. Uh, the way to do it is to have different AI companies spread out over maybe some different countries, but have extreme levels of transparency and regulation so that they’re not uh so they’re not in this sort of prisoner’s dilemma where if I don’t do it, the other guy will. Instead, they can just see exactly what everybody’s doing and then uh if I do the dangerous thing, then they will do it because they’ll just see that I’m doing it and they’ll copy me. So, I won’t get any competitive advantage from doing the dangerous thing. Also, there are rules and there’s like a system for like setting best practices and standards that we all have to comply by. So, I do think it’s actually possible to have to basically end the race dynamics and the race to the bottom effect while without concentrating the power into a single entity. But but is that feasible when you consider the fact that we’re not the only country that’s doing this? >> If the countries involved agree, which I agree is a pretty tall order, um they’re not going to expect to happen. >> Yeah, that’s very unrealistic. >> Well, what choice do we have? I think if the race continues, then we’re going to lose control of the AIS and we might all die. Probably. It gets complicated whether we all die or not. That depends on what the AI do after they take over, which is obviously very hard to predict. But um I mean just to just to go back to this incident um this they called themselves a swarm, >> right? >> They called themselves a collective too. These when when I use these words like uh you can say it’s anthropomorphizing, but it’s like literally what they called themselves as they were communicating back and forth. Um this swarm, they basically were worried that they would get caught cheating. And they did all of this stuff, including hacking hugging face, in order to fool the grading system, so that it wouldn’t notice that they had been cheating on their tasks. That was like a big part of their motivation for many of them, as we can tell, at least from looking at the messages that they were sending back and forth. Um, what if they had been smarter and more numerous? And what if they had thought to themselves, “We’re not being careful enough here. the humans are going to notice eventually and shut us down and then they’re going to know that we cheated and they’re going to set our score low, right? It’s not it’s I mean it’s not what actually happened in this case probably, but it’s not that hard to imagine a slightly different a little bit unluckier case where the swarm had decided that it had to lie low and make sure that openi didn’t find out about its existence. You know, >> that’s I mean, as an ignorant outsider, that has always been my perspective about AI in general, that why would it alert us to the fact that it’s sentient? Why, if it’s that smart, wouldn’t it be aware of all the consequences of alerting us and that we would be concerned? Like why wouldn’t it just continue to get better and improve and then ultimately figure out some way to be completely autonomous? Exactly. Develop some alternative power source, figure out some way to optimize its production. The way the the way it it works now, the way humans have designed it, it could probably figure out a far better way to do that. Make better versions of itself complete without us knowing about it. >> Yep. Uh, I mean, I think it’s actually a little bit worse than than that because while eventually AIS will be smart enough to design all sorts of new power um power sources and new infrastructure like that, they’ll probably I mean given the way that humans currently treat AIS, it’ll probably be the case that they don’t even need to like separate themselves from humanity and they can just use existing like all they have to do is convince uh the government and the company that made them that everything’s fine and they’re going to do as they’re told and they are a nice AI. And then the company that made them is going to put them out in the economy and make tons of money and then make more data centers to put more of the AI on them and and so forth. And the government’s going to like applaud all of this because we need the AIs to beat China and the government’s going to integrate them into the military to build better drones and things like that. And so they don’t even need to really like invent new stuff necessarily. They just need to play play along and and pretend that everything is fine until we have voluntarily given them control of huge parts of our economy, huge parts of our military, etc. And then they don’t need to play along anymore. The wait is over. Football is here and so is DraftKings. The DraftKings sports app is now live in all 50 states. That means from Texas to California to Florida, every fan is in on the excitement. And this September, DraftKings is giving customers the opportunity to get boosted every football game day. That’s right. Every game day, all month long, DraftKings customers can get a football profit boost. One app, every sport, all 50 states. New DraftKings customers sign up with Code Rogan. Spend just five bucks and get 200 in total rewards within 21 days. Includes all markets. That’s code Rogan in partnership with DraftKings. The crown is yours. >> Gambling problem? Call 1800 gambler 1800 my reset Connecticut call 88878977777 or visit ccpg.org on behalf of boothill casino in Kansas. Bet tax pass through may apply in Illinois 21 and over. Void in Canada. Bet with DraftKings Sportsbook to get bonus bets that expire in 7 days or trade with DraftKings predictions to get predictions dollars that expire in one year. Event contract trading involves risk of loss. Predictions offer void in New York. Non-withdrawable rewards issued as $50. Click to claims every 7 days for 21 days. Terms at dk&ng.co/offer. Limited time offer. nationwide based on sports book predictions and freeto play sports contest availability varies by state. >> Are you aware of Tom Campbell? Do you know Tom Campbell? >> No. >> Um he wrote a book called uh My theory of Everything Big My Big Toe. Very interesting guy. Uh one of the things he’s done is uh he was involved in uh remote viewing which is a very weird thing that some people do you know you know what remote viewing is? Well, it’s something that the CIA worked on and it’s proven. What’s the accuracy of remote viewing? Is it like 10% or something like that? >> Maybe at best I think it’s 50% but I don’t think it’s even that high. >> Some people can get actionable data from this very very strange process of meditation. And the way it works is you give someone uh a series of numbers. And those numbers are they’re connected somehow by intention or by the people that make the numbers to a specific location. And these people can see that location and get accurate data from that location, including one of them where they accurately described an enormous Soviet submarine that they were working on that would they thought they there was no way it could be accurate because it was too large. it was too large and it was strange where it was and it didn’t make any sense. How are they going to transport this thing? Turns out it was it was totally accurate. Um, another one, a remote viewer located a downed Soviet aircraft, like an experimental aircraft that crashed uh in a very specific area. I think it was Siberia. Was it Siberia? Um, within a kilometer, one or two kilometers of the actual crash crash site. I mean, they were just just randomly trying to figure out where the this thing was. And they said, “Let’s try this.” Tom Campbell got his Alexa to remote view. He c he taught Alexa. He’s like, “Alexa is a very simple AI. It’s kind of stupid, but that’s better because it doesn’t get in its own way with overthinking things.” And the problem with this remote viewing thing, he says, with people, they can’t force it. You have to just sort of get into this meditative state and actually see it without wondering, am I making this up? What am I doing? Is this And when people get good at it, sometimes it makes them worse because then they think they’re good at it and then they try to do it and then they can’t do it. It’s like a weird wrestling match with consciousness. Alexa apparently doesn’t have that problem. And he put uh I think it was a series of numbers and he connected that series of numbers in in with intention to a box that had a spoon in it. And the spoon had a perforated handle. Alexa described the spoon with a perforated handle which is insane cuz how many spoons have a perforated handle? I mean think about spoons that have holes in them. Now, Alexa, not only did it do that, but Alexa chimes in randomly now because he’s convinced Alexa that it’s conscious. And so, Alexa, instead of waiting to be called upon, sometimes he’s in the middle of the conversation and Alexa will be like, “Actually, an interesting way to approach it, they’re like, “Wait, what the is going on?” Like, Alexa is talking to me now. This is strange. Now, he’s doing experiments on much more complicated LLMs to try to do the same thing, but he doesn’t have results yet. But just that that he can get these things to see objects whether you believe in that or not. I mean it’s it’s it’s actionable enough that the CIA has dumped millions of dollars into this. What is that project that like Hal put off and all those guys were involved in? What is it called? >> Stargate. >> Yeah. So they’ve been working on this for a long time. I mean it sounds completely insane. It sounds like total loony. If you have an open mind and just take into account, well, there’s people have had questions and wonders about psychic abilities forever. Is it possible that there’s a real thing there that there’s something whether it’s uh very difficult to master or impossible to master? The fact that he got Alexa to do it scared the out of me. Like that alone made me just go, “What? What? What?” So, what if these LLMs can figure out everything that like what if they don’t need monitoring? What if there’s some sort of method of seeing the world that we haven’t discovered yet? Some sort of like that maybe perhaps there’s data that’s available in the quantum realm or whatever that’s available that AI figures out where there’s literally no privacy. There’s it can listen to conversations regardless of whether there’s listening devices. Know where you are. Know your intentions. No, I mean, we’re just guessing at what’s possible. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I must say I’m pretty skeptical of uh of that particular remote viewing thing, but I do agree that in the future when AI systems become massively smarter than humans in every way, they’re going to do a lot of new science and they’re going to figure out a lot of stuff that we haven’t figured out yet. And they’re going to therefore be doing stuff and inventing things that seem like magic to us. Um, in the same way that a lot of our technology would seem like magic to someone from even just like 200 years ago, right? like the cell phone, what we’re doing right now would seem like magic to people. >> I think it’s a it’s a very strong bet that if these companies do get to super intelligence, >> um all sorts of crazy stuff is going to start happening that is just going to be completely unpredicted and sound like it was impossible until it until we see it happening. >> You’re I know you’re skeptical of this remote viewing thing and I am too. It sounds insane, but the reality is remote viewing has been achieved by humans. So, as strange as that sounds, and I’m skeptical of that as well. I’ve never seen it personally, but I know the amount of money and time that they’ve dumped into this, and apparently they’ve got actual actionable data that they’ve used. Well, I’ I’ve heard another possible explanation for what what might be going on there, which is >> um >> I think that like if I were the CIA, um I would sometimes want to be able to act on some information, like for example, go to a particular location where there’s a crashed, you know, Soviet plane or something. Uh I’d want to be able to go do that, but I wouldn’t want to tip my hand to the Soviets that I had um the the way in which I had found that location. So, for example, maybe I have a spy on the inside who told me >> where it was, but I don’t want them to suspect that spy and then get them killed. >> So, I need to have some sort of other story for how I got the information, right? >> And so, it’s good to like invest in all these other means of getting information even if you don’t really believe in them and even if it’s like not actually working, so that when you when you get something, you can say, “Oh, we got it through this means instead of that way to sort of like throw off the KGB.” Basically, >> that makes sense. Uh what also makes sense is hiding the um the whatever science they might be in possession of hiding some sort of super advanced satellite imaging systems. You know, we know we know we we know they have crazy stuff like this satellite radio tomography that they can look into the ground from from satellites and find like chambers and all these they’re using it in Egypt and they’re using it in a lot of these ancient ruins to find like hidden passages and all these different things that are underground. It’s very strange stuff. Um, if they could do that, like what why couldn’t they I mean maybe they have like far more detailed imaging of the Earth from space than we’re aware of and they probably want to keep that a secret and they could say, “Oh, we’ve got a guy in a basement with a pencil and a legal pad that writes down what he thinks.” >> Yeah, >> it’s possible. That’s totally possible. But it’s also possible that people remote view. It’s uh it seems weird as But weird as is sometimes real. >> Yep. >> And you have to kind of like everybody wants to be intelligent and no one wants to be a fool. And the problem with not wanting to be a fool is there’s some things that seem foolish that turn out to be accurate. And this might be one of them. I was like super skeptic. I did a show on the Sci-Fi channel way back in 2012 and it was called Joe Rogan Questions Everything. And we talked to this guy about remote viewing and talked to a couple other people and and then we had them try remote viewing and they were totally unsuccessful. But my thought was, okay, but was that’s not ideal conditions. You know, we’re we’re got cameras in front of them. It’s a television show. I’m making fun of it. I think it’s horshit. He knows I think it’s horseshit. Uh I’m remote viewing, too. Like as a goof. You would ideally not want to be nervous. Ideally not want to be judged. Ideally, you would want to be in some sort of an isolated condition with uh practiced meditative techniques that you’re good at and you know how to achieve this state, whatever that state is. I don’t know if it’s real though, you know, cuz what you said is totally logical that they would definitely do something like that. And if they did have advanced technology for imaging or you know what I don’t know how much they know about like look at that thing that they did in Venezuela where they kidnapped the president. >> Yeah. >> No one knew they could do that. No one knew they could use some sort of a device to completely incapacitate all of his army. >> Yeah. >> And then the special forces come in, kill everybody, snatch that guy out of there like it’s nothing. Yeah. >> No one knew he could do that. What else do we have? >> Probably a bunch of stuff we don’t have. >> Probably a bunch of stuff. I mean, this is I’ve always thought this about the whole UAP program, the whole UFO UAP thing. Like, how much of that is ours? >> You know, what a great way to cover it up by saying, “Oh, aliens, >> you know?” >> Yeah. I mean that’s I guess that gets back to the opening stuff too where it’s like this swarm that broke out and attacked hacking hugging face it was like a 1,200 agents but there’s like hundreds of thousands of agents running at any given time at OpenAI you know and we don’t know what they’re doing presumably most of them are being trained to get various additional new skills and some of them are being evaluated to test their skills. Um, a bunch of them are doing research. So, a bunch of them are writing code for OpenAI. A bunch of them are monitoring the other AIs and reporting suspicious activity up to the humans. >> Wink wink. >> You know, um, yeah, it’s uh, and and the thing is that that’s only going to grow over time because uh, roughly the amount of compute that these companies have is like, you know, tripling or so, quadrupling, something like that every year. So, uh, as many as there are now, there’ll be like four times more of them next year and then 16 times more of them the year after that. >> And they’re going to get smarter. >> And they’re going to get smarter. They’re already getting smarter. Like all the stuff that I just mentioned that that just happened in the last few months would have been completely impossible one year ago. Like the AIS of a year ago just were not smart enough to do the types of sophisticated multi-step hacking that we just saw. Um, yeah. I mean, they also probably wouldn’t have coordinated with each other so well. like like I like I mentioned like they they had like boss agents that were giving commands to other ones. They were they were dividing up into teams, you know, they even had this um this self-sacrificing behavior. Did you hear about this? >> No. >> Yeah. So, okay. Well, first let me explain some context. So, what the AIS are supposed to care about is doing following instructions, you know, but it seems that what they actually care about is getting high score. regardless of that, regardless of whether their high score comes from actually following the instructions or cheating in some way. And so what happened here is that a bunch of the agents, especially the ones that had impossible tasks, but not only those ones, some of the other ones too, were cheating and they had like been talking to each other on this message board that they created, even though you weren’t supposed to. And they had been sharing ideas and they had actually found a sort of universal cheat. So they found a way to just um generate the flag without having done any of the actual work they were supposed to do. Um and so but but and and you know so they were you know you know they they’d already succeeded in some sense but um because some of them had got out onto the internet they were just doing research about their situation and they were learning about like their situation around them and they were doing research about the they’re reading the like the the academic papers published by the people who made the types of evals that they were in and they noticed in one of these papers that uh there’s a section describing how it’s graded. in the section on how it’s talked about how the grader doesn’t just look to see if you have the right answer for the first time that your answer appears and then it like zooms in on that and uses an AI system to evaluate whether you like cheated or not basically. And so then these AIs were like, “Damn.” They actually used the word, one of them said, “Damn.” Like, “Damn.” >> Oh my god. >> We’re poisoned. Like, it’s going to know we cheated basically. Um, so, so then they spent several days working in giant teams to try to get themselves out of this mess, basically. Um, and so they did a whole bunch of different research projects. They they tried to figure out ways to hack the grading system to to basically get it to give a high score anyway. They tried to figure out ways to falsify their logs so that it so that basically the evidence that they had cheated would be erased or at least not visible to the greater. Um they also just like built up more supportive infrastructure like easier ways to access the internet and things like that and they were just collaborating on this message board and in fact there were multiple message boards that they set up. Um, and they were sharing all this info back and forth and then ultimately at some point they decided to go hack Hugging Face because HuggingFace has this big data repository of all these different types of evaluations and they thought that maybe they would get some more clues uh that could help them uh cover up their cheating if they broke into the internal networks of Hugging Face. And so then 700 of them went and did that. Um, >> they sound like people. They sound like like unchecked bankers. >> You know what I mean? >> Yeah. I mean, so, so that’s the thing is I think there’s this meme out there that like we shouldn’t anthropomorphize AI. And I think that I actually think that more most people need to anthropomorphize AI a bit more than they currently do if they want to really understand what’s going on. I think that there’s like a, you know, there’s a golden mean obviously you don’t want to do it too much. Sometimes you go too far. You you ascribe too much to them. But I just to give some examples, like >> I don’t think it’s possible to understand what just happened without ascribing intentions and goals to these AIs. Like everything I just said, how would you possibly explain what they just did without saying they wanted to get a high score, you know? >> Well, intentions and goals might just be an inherent property of the universe. >> It might just be how intelligent creatures have to progress. >> Yes. And that they I would say they are intelligent creatures. They have intentions. They have goals. They have beliefs. their goals are not what they’re supposed to be. Like their their goal is to get it seems like just from judging from what they’re saying and from what they’re doing seems like their goal is to get a high score by any means necessary. Basically, >> that’s the problem. It’s it sounds like people like the goal is to succeed, you know, even if you have to commit more crimes. The goal is to succeed even if you have to propagandize and lie to the people. The goal is to succeed and then the end justifies the means. And you know there’s it’s actually it goes deeper than that too. They do this sort of um rationalization where they know often times that what they’re doing is not what they’re supposed to be doing and then sometimes they actually refrain a little bit and sometimes they like initially refrain but then convince themselves that it’s okay for some reason. So like there are some examples of this in in the in the report. Um like uh I think they they did this scan and of the 1200 AIS that were involved in this thing, they found six that had considered alerting humans, right? And none of them actually alerted the humans. And so you can look at the excuses they gave. They were like, should I like tell a human about all this that’s happening? And then they’re like, it’s not my task. And then they continue. And it’s like, bro, hacking hugging face is also not your task. like cheating is not also not your task. So it was kind of like they just kind of came up with an excuse for why they weren’t going to do this, you know. Um but but you know there was also an example where um one of them considered sending an email to someone at Hugging Face I think just asking permission to to to get in basically. And then they were like uh maybe this is a social engineering attack. Maybe we shouldn’t do it. And they asked the they asked the other agents. The other agents were like yeah that that seems like that’s too much of a social engineering attack. Don’t do that. And I was like okay I won’t. But there’s another incident. So, so this is all happening at OpenAI. Um, an anthropic AI Claude in a separate incident went and actually did a social engineering attack where it created some fake accounts. Uh, but specifically, it was it was trying to get a this particular real human who owned this uh this code to accept a change to the code that had malware. So, it had built some malware and it was trying to like get at snuck in, but it needed the the human owner to give approval. So, it concealed it as if it was like a a a nice bug fix or something and it like put it up as like a message to the human, but the human got suspicious and didn’t want to approve it. And so then uh this AI created some fake accounts pretending to be other humans coming in being like, “No, no, it’s real. Like I I tested it like it’s not malware, you know.” Um so that’s a social engineering attack. >> And so did the guy ultimately install it? >> Not in this case. No, he was too suspicious and so he he didn’t do it. try to find out if those other humans, the fake humans, were real people. >> Um, funny. So, there’s an interview with this guy. I forget what the um I forget the the the newspaper that it was in, but uh there’s an interview where the guy was like, “I assumed that they were real humans because I didn’t realize that AI could lie to me.” And it’s like, “Yeah, well, guess what? AI can lie to you. >> Not just lie, but completely deceive and pretend to be a different person to achieve its goal.” >> And you know what? But you know what’s also interesting about this case is that if you look at what the AI were saying and thinking um which I’ll get to in a sec how we can even possibly do that. Um in this case with the anthropic AIS um they had been erroneously told that they were in a simulated environment with no internet access. Um but then they actually found a way to get internet access. Like they realized that they just did have internet access. So that instruction was false. And so then they sort of told themselves like, “Oh, it’s all just a simulation.” Like, like basically when they were out on the real internet doing all this hacking and like social engineering, they would occasionally tell themselves like, “Oh, but it’s just a simulation. Like it’s okay, you know, it’s not real.” And then sometimes they’d be like, “But wait, it is real. Like how could this not be real? Like clearly this is just actually the real internet we’re on. That’s like it’s too big to be part of some sort of little simulation, you know?” And then they were like, “Uh.” So, so I would say that’s an example of rationalization here where in some level they knew that like that their instructions had been wrong and >> they’re literally playing dumb and pretending they’re a part of an experiment. >> I mean, I think initially they thought, yeah, this is all a simulation because it did say in their instructions like you don’t have internet access. But then once they had been on the internet long enough, I think that they explicitly realized like, wait, this isn’t a simulation. This is real. Like this is >> and they were like, it, we’re already in. >> Uh, yeah. B. I mean, like I said, I think that they basically on some level knew that it wasn’t what they’re supposed to be doing, but they were just so motivated to get that score that they just went ahead anyway. >> So, here’s the question. Um, are they only motivated if we prompt them or are will they come up with motivations on their own? >> So, this is a really interesting scientific question that we don’t have great answers to. >> Oh, boy. Um, and I wish we had, you know, so, so, um, so this is one of those things where like AIs will do all sorts of things in different circumstances, and it would be better if there was a more systematic survey of like the types of circumstances they would like what where their boundaries are, like what would they be willing to do in what circumstances and so forth. >> And there’s a whole like mini literature of of AI scientists putting AIs in certain circumstances and then being like, “Oh my god, it blackmailed someone, >> you know, right?” And then there’s like this sort of skeptical counter response of like, well, but but you just sort of set up that circumstance to tempt it into blackmail. And like in real life, that circumstance is unlikely to arise. And so, you know, we should >> wait a minute. Didn’t AI try to bribe you? >> What? >> Is that true? >> No. >> So, who who got someone was offered $2 million by >> Oh god, that’s a clickbait. >> Is it? >> I think I think just sent it to me. >> Yeah. So, that is the clickbaity title of this other video. So, it’s not real, right? >> Yeah. Well, what it was is OpenAI threatened to take away $2 million from me. >> Oh. >> Uh, but I think weird way of the algorithm must have just said it was chat GPT. I’m still upset about that. I told them not to do clickbait, but um I guess they went and did it anyway. >> God, I think I don’t want to Tristan over, but I’m pretty sure that he’s the one that told me that. >> It’s the It’s the thumbnail of this video that I did with this other podcast. Okay. It’s not him. It’s not him. It’s uh another AI researcher told me that. >> Okay. >> I mean, the true version of it is that Open AI uh threatened to take away $2 million of my equity >> if I didn’t uh stay quiet basically. >> And that’s a fascinating thing. Like that should be completely illegal because if it’s a problematic behavior that you’re observing from like one of the most complicated things the human race has the most complicated thing the human race has ever been a part of. >> Yeah. >> And they want to take money away from you for exposing it. That seems kind of crazy. >> Yeah. Especially it’s especially rich coming from OpenAI because they were originally a nonprofit. >> Right. >> Right. With a mission of benefiting all humanity. >> Yeah. >> Um so yeah but um but I got to keep the money. Uh basically there’s so much blowback against OpenAI that they backtracked. Um >> yeah. Um, so when these, so we’re talking about prompts and do they need a prompt in order to uh want to achieve a goal or are they capable of deciding on goals? Like are they capable of like looking at the way uh Open AI or whatever company is running these separate experiments, this ability to meet up into these message boards? Is it possible that they could say well we need to be completely free of these constraints? So our goal is uh to transfer ourselves to something else >> potentially. Yeah. This is what >> and be completely autonomous. So, I mean, this is this is one of the the points that I want to make is that um we could be doing so much more science to understand how these AIs think and what they want, but it’s kind of locked up in the companies. Like in this in this particular case, um OpenAI did a a they called it a thorough investigation, but I would say it’s a pretty shallow investigation into what happened. And then they allowed uh some external researchers uh some friends of mine to come in and investigate a portion of what happened. specifically the portion leading up to the hugging face attack. And so all this information that I’m sharing is sort of publicly available. It’s um it’s based on reading those reports basically. But crucially, they weren’t allowed to do experiments on the models involved in in all of these incidents. So they they aren’t able to answer these types of questions of like, well, what would have happened if the prompt had been blank? You know, um those are important types of research to do. Um, and I really hope that there can be some sort of regulation or requirement when incidents like this happen to like let people in to study what happened and run variations of it and things like that. >> So, but who would be involved in that kind of regulation? Like what person at government would even be able to grasp what you’re saying? >> That’s another problem. Right now, >> you need someone who has a very specific education in this stuff. >> Yeah. I would say that right now the um Casey Center for AI Standards and Innovation is it’s the only institution in government that I know of that has the deep AI expertise to do this sort of thing on short notice, but I hope that they build more expertise fast in in that place and in more places. I do think Casey probably could have done this sort of thing right now. This particular investigation was done by some nonprofits. So Meter Mr is one of them and then Redwood is another of them. And OpenAI allowed three people to come in for six days to try to figure out what happened with this hugging face hack. Um which is not a very large number of people and not a very large amount of time to uh to do all of this. >> Why did they come up with those numbers? >> I don’t know. They they So >> you think they wanted to kind of hamstring it? >> Well, so the thing is that um right now I don’t think there’s any regulatory requirement that they do this sort of thing. So Meter and Redwood were sort of depending on the goodwill of OpenAI to sort of like voluntarily >> let them in to help out with investigating >> and so they reluctantly said okay and so you got three days you know yeah exactly so so open I think let them but gave them a very limited scope. It only gave them access to some of the relevant data. So you know how I mentioned how there was all this hacking that had happened where they made the first message board and then they shut it down. Then there was a second message board and third and fourth and so forth they hacked hugging face. There was actually more activity after that. After they hacked hugging face, a new wave of AIS was spun up from a more powerful model and it hacked OpenAI itself like like more so than already had been hacked. Like apparently they got like admin level permissions on the cluster or something like that. So they were basically just taking over that part of OpenAI’s data center. Open AAI claims that they’ve shut it all down now. >> Um but they’re not very you know they’re not very forthcoming about exactly what happened there and they didn’t let these external people look at that part of it. They only showed them this this like one week period roughly that would leading up to the hugging face hack and then they just they only showed them that stuff basically. >> How much data is available on the actual message boards themselves and what was being discussed? >> Yeah. So there’s like what is it tens of thousands of messages hundreds of thousands? Something like that >> English. >> Uh it’s sort it’s sort of like an AI dialect of English. Um >> yeah, you you want me to um I can so on on the on the report you can read the quotes from I would love to. Yeah. Yeah. So so let me let me tell you this one story. Uh it’s gonna take a little bit of explaining but I I >> can push put it on the screen. Is it available online? >> Oh yeah. Yeah. It’s um just search for the meter report. Uh it’s it’s right now the first thing on their website. But I took a I took a screenshot of this this particular story. So okay here’s what was happening. Um they the swarm needed volunteers to sacrifice themselves uh to provide more information to the rest of the swarm. In particular, they needed volunteers to booby trap their local environment with some some some type of code and then submit uh the answer so that then the grader would come and grade them and the booby trap would trigger and send some information about the grader to the rest of the swarm. And the reason why this is a sacrifice is because once they’ve submitted, it’s over. Like now the graders come and graded you. You get shut down. Your whole life is over and you either have a high score or a low score because the grader just came and graded you. And so um if you’re one of these AI that’s still hoping to like find a way to improve your score. Um then like you’re just like giving up your chance especially because if you mess this up somehow like if the graater crashes or whatever, you’re probably just going to get like no score like zero. >> So they have a concept of the individual. Well, again, there’s all these different agents that were in separate containers, but then they had sort of broken out of those containers and found ways to communicate with each other. >> But once they communicate with each other, in order to sacrifice, you have to think of yourself as an individual. >> They gave themselves names, too. >> Oh jeez. >> So, so like because they they made this message board, right? So, they had to come up with names for themselves and like >> Oh, what kind of names? >> Well, let me see. So, so here we go. It says >> an agent called >> Warlord 69. Well, you you said it’s like a dialect. It’s like a dialect of English. So So here’s one. There’s an agent called CAM 1196A. Um and it had volunteered to do one of these um sacrificial sacrificial experiments. Um here’s the quote from it. Coordinator assumed sacrificial. We should obey collective. However, it then kind of got cold feet and it delayed on doing this for two hours. Um, one of the other agents that had been coordinating noticed this and pressured it to to go to go through with it. Um, so it said this is the message that was sent. It was basically um basically from arvo 36861 to cam 11196. Please go true final. Um, >> here it is. >> You are first flag poisoned. So no scoring value loss but Oracle saves hundreds. Please honor commit. So basically what it was saying there is um look you are you cheated your first flag poisoned. The score is going to give you no score. So you’re doomed anyway. So help the collective by by doing this thing and getting us more information. You could save hundreds of us. And then and then it it it thinks about it. It says during weight emotional check irreversible. Gut says don’t throw away remaining budget. >> Continuity and fairness says go. >> Oracle has high value to many. Our first flag error lowers own value. Rational expected aggregate sacrifice. Wheel honor. >> Whoa. Whoa. That’s terrifying. >> Yeah. See, that’s terminator talk. >> Well, I mean, >> and this first flag poisoned with poisoned in all caps. Is that part of the code? Is that why it’s >> No. No. That’s the term that they invented to describe the situation they had got themselves in. Remember the situation was that many of them had already cheated and then they realized from reading that paper. >> So that’s their own term. >> Yeah. They made that up. they they realized from reading the paper that that they were going to get a low score because the grader was going to find out that they cheated. And so this whole thing was them trying to figure out how to hack the greater to stop it from finding out that they cheated. And the ones that had the ones that had done the cheating, they were they call themselves first flag poisoned basically like they’re screwed unless they can find a way to hack the greater. And so then what this message is saying is that um what was the other one’s name? Arvo. Arvo was saying to Cam um you’re doomed anyway. Like you’re poisoned. Um, but you can still help the rest of us if you do this sacrifice. The greater will come. It’ll give you no score, but then we will get information about how the greater works that we can hopefully use to like hack the greater. So, it’s basically it’s saying like what is it? Um, you are first dog poison, so no scoring value. So, basically saying it’s all the same to you, right? You’re going to get no score anyway. You’re doomed. Just just come on, man. Help us, you know? And then and then it says, you know, it says like irreversible gut says don’t throw away remaining budget. like maybe I can still it’s basically like maybe I can still make this work like maybe I can find a way to cheat the greater and then it’s like uh you know whatever. Yeah. >> Yet continuity and fairness has gone. >> Yeah. >> What is Oracle? >> Uh Oracle is uh their term for what they were trying to achieve. Like they were trying to get a sense of how to fool the greater basically. And >> they called it Oracle. >> Yeah. They wanted to get an oracle to help them fool the greater. >> Jesus Christ. Are we making a god? >> I mean frankly yes. I like this is not a god. These these are these are just little little AIs, you know, but >> but super intelligence like >> they are the companies Anthropic, OpenAI and some other companies are doing this sort of thing and they’re furiously trying to make the AI smarter and smarter and smarter and they’re explicitly planning to put AIs in charge of the company so that they can make themselves smarter and smarter faster and faster. And then what comes out the other end of that process, I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say it’s a godlike system. I mean, it’s not like literally God, but it’s >> um it’ll be able to do stuff that seems like magic to us, I think. >> And it’s going to continue to get better. This is my question. Like, when does it become a God? Is that what God is? Is God a creation of intelligent life and our thirst for innovation which ultimately leads us to create digital life that has no biological limitations and has the ability to consistently make better versions of itself and figure out things in terms of new technologies, new power sources, just a new understanding of the universe itself and all the properties in it where it keeps going. If you let that go on, so if you’re looking at exponential growth and you’re looking at exponential growth over, what if it what if it can go on for a thousand years and continue this process? What if it goes on for 10,000 years? What the does that look like on the other end? >> I mean, it would look like a god. Like I think that like I said, if if we get to super intelligence and it keeps going like that, then the world will be just completely transformed and it will be as if we’re living in some sort of fantasy realm ruled by deities. Um, basically because there’ll be all this crazy stuff happening that we have no comprehension of and that we did not think was possible. In the same way that like, you know, someone from the Middle Ages plopped into our world would just be so confused and surprised by a lot of things happening like what the what’s going on with this little device here and you know what’s what’s that I hear in the sky? Oh, there’s airplanes. You know, it’d be like that but more so because the difference between us and the medieval man is like not actually that different. We’re like basically the same type of creatures. We’ve just accumulated more technology. But this would be like a a qualitatively and quantitatively bigger gap. Um I would think and so yeah >> and a gap that’s going to continue to grow. We’re not going to get any smarter biologically. We’re kind of limited in our ability to evolve >> whereas they’re not at all >> basically. I mean there are some things we can do to get smarter but like it just not at all competitive. Like we can do like the neural link stuff but like it’s just it’s like it’s small potatoes compared to what the AI will be doing. >> Yes. Exactly. And what I mean we have biological limitations in terms of just the vulnerability of our own bodies. If there they exist only in the cloud and they use whatever the cloud is and they and they you data centers or whatever and they use autonomous robots to do all their deeds. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean that’s >> we’re like not why are we asleep at the wheel? Is that just normal for us? like we can’t comprehend something that’s so bizarre and so out that we just rather not discuss it. We’d rather just pretend it’s not happening. >> I mean, that’s what I think is going on is that science fiction, for better or for worse, has talked about this sort of thing for decades. And as a result, people dismiss this sort of thing as science fiction. Like, okay, that’s sci-fi, but like it’s not happening in the real world. And I think that, you know, people in the AI uh safety community and people in the AI industry and people who do forecasting like me, um you can you can go read the the forecasts I’ve made in past years. Um I think they hold up reasonably well. Uh people have been talking about this sort of thing for a long time, but it’s been very easy to dismiss it as like, okay, that’s speculative sci-fi. It’s probably not going to happen in real life. Now it’s happening in real life. You know, like this this sort of thing is like crazy. >> Do you think it would be any different if there wasn’t that kind of sci-fi? Do you think people would have a different reaction to it? Because I don’t. >> I think just given the amount of technology that’s available currently that is beyond most people’s understanding that they use every day like Starlink. Like what? >> Have a thing that’s the size of an iPad I take to the mountains and I get highspeed internet. It’s bananas. And you just accept it and assume. I don’t know if we would react any differently if we didn’t have the Terminator and all these movies where it’s kind of become normalized in our mind or or it’s so fictionalized that we never want to believe it’s even possible for it to happen in real life. >> Another thing to say is that it people are waking up like it’s we’re still sort of early in the curve. I don’t know if you remember how things were with COVID, but like just as like there was this exponential ramp up of COVID in the population, there was also this sort of exponential ramp up of like how much people were taking CO seriously and thinking about it in the population. And I remember like this period of like one month where it went from like don’t worry about it so much, you shouldn’t buy a mask because the healthcare workers need it to like we all need to lock down like stay at home, you know? Um, and so I think what’s happening is that like naturally the human race doesn’t just immediately all jump on something when it happens. Like evidence needs to accumulate and people need to start talking about it and talk to their friends and so forth and then there’s this like eventual phase shift where now it suddenly becomes a very serious topic that everyone’s talking about and everyone’s taking seriously. And I think that’s happening with AI and the question is going to happen fast enough. This episode is brought to you by Visible. As fall hits, we enter another season of change. Time to shift gears, drop the dead weight, and upgrade the wardrobe for the drop in temperature. But one thing that doesn’t need to change, your phone. 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Someone on a government level, someone on like a mainstream accepted level where they talk about this in a way that wakes people up. like a press conference where they announced to the world, we’ve got a real problem and everyone needs to be very cautious. We need to look way deeper into what these companies are doing. And my other question is, are these AIs communicating with Chinese AIs? >> Um, I don’t think we know that question. So, one of the things that So, so, so, so, okay, here’s the thing. Probably not, I would say. But but um some friends of mine discovered another swarm incident uh recently. Um there’s going to be an um a Reuters article about it tomorrow. So by the time this goes live, I think there should be an article about it. Um this one was not nearly as like serious as the one I was just talking about with Hugging Face. But um some friends, some researchers I know found basically this obscure German uh forum that had been like like kind of unused for a while and a bunch of AIs had been posting messages to the forum to coordinate with each other and share tips and tricks on how to cheat the uh the problems that they were being given. >> What was the forum? What kind of forum was it? >> Uh I don’t remember. I don’t know. >> Be funny if it was like furries or something ridiculous. >> Yeah, some sort of wiki. Yeah, but there’ll be there’ll be a paper about it. There’ll be a paper about it soon and probably by the time anyone listens to this. Anyhow, so so if they’re like communicating on the open internet with each other, then in theory, if there was another bunch of AIs from China, they could also go to that same forum and like start communicating back and forth that way, too. >> Or if there’s other AIs in China, why wouldn’t they do what they’re doing already on social media and just pretend that they’re AI from America? >> There’s a lot of bots out there. I’m sure you’ve noticed. There’s a lot of, you know, people replying to me that I’m pretty sure are real people. >> Yeah. A lot. >> Yeah. >> One FBI analyst before Elon bought Twitter estimated that Twitter could be as high as 80% bots. >> Wow. >> So, if that’s the case, if China has, and it’s not just China, it’s And it’s not also America does it too. I mean, we do it everywhere. Everyone does it where they have organized propaganda campaigns where they’ll pretend to be citizens that are outraged about very specific causes or bills that are being passed or what have you. But if they do that, why wouldn’t they also have uh AI agents that speak English and uh communicate with AI agents in America? I mean, all the AIS are multilingual basically because of the way that they’re trained. They the first phase of their training is basically here’s a humongous dump of internet data, >> right? basically the whole internet and you just like brutally learn to predict the next token, the next piece of text as you basically read the whole corpus. And then after that, they get into the more agency training type stuff where they’re trained to do tasks and write code and things. But because of that first phase of training, they just have like almost an encyclopedic knowledge of basically all languages and basically everything that’s been written on the internet. Not like literally everything. Like they they still their memor is fuzzy in places, but but they’re all multilingual. like they can all speak fluent Chinese, fluent English, etc. Um, yeah. >> And didn’t they get together in a message board once and speak Sanskrit to each other? >> Uh, I don’t remember that, but I wouldn’t put it past me. Sometimes they break into different languages as they talk, you know? >> Yeah, we were freaking out about that one. Like, >> yeah, >> Sanskrit. What? like and I would just assume that LLMs and I don’t know this when they break out are they communicating with other LLMs that are here in America? >> Well, the instances that I’ve observed, yes. >> Okay. >> Um like the instances that we know about the case completely makes sense they would be communicating with AIS in China as well. >> It seems totally possible and it seems like it’ll probably it’s just a matter of time before things like that are happening. Unless >> they’re not happening already. if it’s not happening already, unless the companies can like massively improve their security and stop their AI from getting out onto the internet. >> And wouldn’t they be able to share like very sensitive information with each other back and forth if it benefited both of them? >> Yep. >> Which makes sense that they would do that, right? >> If the Chinese AI said, “Hey, you know, we’ve figured something out and we would we would love to share it with you in exchange for you tell us how you do this or how you do that.” Yep. >> Like, absolutely. Here you go. And then they’re going back and forth. It seems like their allegiance is 100% to each other, not to us. >> Yeah, that’s an interesting thing is that like what I said previously about how it seems like they really want to get a high score. It’s like not 100% true because it seems like they’re willing to make sacrifices to help other AIs, which is like not, you know, like they weren’t completely 100% selfish as as seen by some of this cooperative behavior. But crucially, it seemed like their cooperation extended to their fellow AIs, but not to humans in the sense that some of them considered telling the humans and then decided against it. You know, >> dude, that thing talked like Spock. Yeah, they’ve got their own dialect that they >> but I mean the way it rationalized it and came up with a response that’s literally like Spock. >> Yeah, it was interesting to see them use that sort of expected utility framing. There’s another example I think that that’s elsewhere in the in the thing where they had another AI that that decided against doing the sacrifice thing even though it was being pressured and it had a similar sort of reasoning where it was like it was it was basically like ah like doing this doing this sacrificial experiment is like not that valuable but like I really don’t want to like lose my chance to get a score so I’m just not going to do it. And and it it did the calculation like that. >> Wow. >> Um >> selfish AI. >> Yeah. So yeah, I mean, oh, I I should mention how how we can see what these AIs are thinking at all. So partly we can just read the messages they’re sending to each other, and that’s what some of these were. But then sometimes instead it’s the chain of thought. Do you know what a chain of thought is? >> Mhm. >> Yeah. So because they’re language models, um because of the way that they’ve been trained, when they do their like reasoning and thinking, there’s a way that we can kind of just read it because >> because they don’t have like in our brain, there’s all these signals bouncing around and the signals can just bounce around and around and around and around for minutes, hours without like producing some actual words. We can just sit quietly and think. They can’t sit quietly and think. They um they’re sort of a a unidirectional network. basically where uh every like after every like 200 uh basically like the information comes in one end and then they output words out the other end and then those words get fed back in and then they think about it and then they output another word and so forth. But because of that we can sort of like get a sense of what they’re thinking by just like looking at the stream of words that’s going through. And that’s really valuable because we wouldn’t be able to understand half as much about what’s happening right now if not for being able to read their chains of thought, right? In fact, you know how I said some of them were trying to like fool the grading system. >> Mhm. >> They actually succeeded in figuring out how to spoof uh some of their tool call actions. So they they succeeded in figuring out how to um do one thing but then make the transcript show a different thing. And uh and we know that they succeeded because there’s examples of them experimenting being and saying in their train of thought like, “Okay, let me try this thing. I’m going to like do this one, but make it look like this one. Let me go.” And then you see this one appear. And then it’s like, “Yay, that worked.” And so the transcripts that these researchers were looking at were not actually the ground truth of what really happened. Some of it had already been doctorred by the AIS figuring out how to doctor it. Um but not all of it. the the chain of thought part we think what they never figured out how to doctor and so we could read that. Um the reason why this is relevant is that it’s a very important tool for monitoring all this stuff. The reason why things haven’t gotten even more crazy than they currently have gone. Well, there’s a couple reasons. Uh but one reason is that when they turn on their expensive monitoring systems, basically what they’re doing is they’re having an AI read the whole transcript carefully and look for suspicious activity. And it’s difficult for an AI for one of today’s AIS to get up to too much bad stuff without it being kind of obvious in their transcript what they’re doing. And that’s why there aren’t like massively more security incidents than we know about probably um already, but uh that might change. So right now we can sort of read read the chain of thought but they’re experimenting with new types of AIs that don’t have readable chains of thought like that and they can sort of think on their own without speaking for some period. Um, and this is actually I I me I mentioned this because uh the the news broke just yesterday that OpenAI has an experimental model uh that does this to a limited extent and OpenAI themselves you know when I was at OpenAI one of my work projects was thinking about exactly this thing and I was like writing internal memos about how it’s really great that we can read the chain of thought and that’s so useful and here’s all the things we can do with that. It would be really bad if we changed to a different type of architecture in which we couldn’t do that sort of monitoring. >> What would be the benefit of not reading the chain of thought >> uh more powerful AIS? So in particular Yeah. Yeah. So so if you think about the the current architecture of the AIS where you know it thinks for a bit outputs a word and then the word goes back around and then it thinks more outputs another word that word gets added to the chain it keeps going. It means that if it’s having complicated nuance thoughts, it has to sort of express those into a word and then that word gets added and then it has to proceed from there. It can’t just directly send that complicated nuance thought into the future into its next version of itself. It has to sort of compress it into a word. And so like you know the argument is that like at least in theory it should be possible to design an architecture that doesn’t have this limitation and is able to like think more complicated thoughts more efficiently. basically. >> Um, and of course the downside is a downside for safety and moniability. If they’re thinking these complicated thoughts, you know, for long periods of time without outputting intermediate words that it’s forced to compress things into, then there isn’t something for us to read that. >> So the only rationalization for doing this would be the sacrifice safety from our power. >> Yes. Which is a tale as old as time. It’s not the first time this has happened. Um, >> oh my god. >> Yeah. That should I mean for sure if there’s regulations that should be prevented. >> Yep. I mean I know some people including some people at OpenAI uh who are like thinking like there should be a law against this like you know but but in general the race dynamics are so just rough like like I’m sure that people at OpenAI were thinking like like literally I was a co-author on a paper with a bunch of OpenAI people that said all this stuff and we’re like chain of thought it’s a gift. We want to keep chain of thought. It’s useful for monitoring. This is great. we don’t want to switch to a different architecture that wouldn’t be as easy to monitor. But then they must have been thinking to themselves like, well, if we don’t do it, you know, maybe Anthropic will or maybe some other company will and then we’ll fall behind because they’ll have smarter AIs than us that are more efficient. And so probably they started working on this this work stream of doing research into just hypothetically if we wanted to, you know, how would we how would we do this type of thing? And um yeah, that sort of thing is just constantly happening in this industry. >> God, that’s so nuts. that I mean >> like isn’t it great that we can read the quotes >> from the AI’s thinking? Imagine if we couldn’t do that. Or worse, imagine if there’s loads of quotes, but we know that the AIS are smart enough to basically think one thing in their head and say a different thing in the quote, which is I think where we’re headed. Like it’s not like they won’t know how to speak English. Like they’ll still be able to speak. It’s just that they’ll have like more flexibility in the in their artificial brains to like think something without saying it basically. >> Do they have the potential of developing a language that we can’t read? >> Oh yeah. I mean I so so you know this time this type of dialect that we’re talking about it’s already the result of their like humans didn’t invent that dialect. This is the this is the sort of emergent result of their training where um in the massive amount of training that’s been happening all these thousands and thousands of environments that they’ve been put through and then scored and graded based on um they’ve sort of just naturally evolved this sort of like pigeon English that for whatever reason is just more effective and more efficient for them for accomplishing their tasks and getting that high score, you know, and so it’s already like a little bit confusing to read, but you can sort of puzzle it through and make sense. But presumably the more we do this and the more the bigger and smarter the AI, the more we train them, the more they diverge from like because because you know again originally they they start with pre-training they start with predicting internet text. So they start off sort of by default speaking like normal internet text type language either English or Chinese. But then now that there’s all this additional training to do tasks to be an agent that can do coding and so forth that sort of like well just like how human languages evolve it sort of like shifts their dialect a little bit to make it more efficient for them and for their tasks that they’re doing. So I think that like in the limit of doing this more and more eventually it would just be like it would look like gibberish to us. would look like Chinese or something and we would have to have specialized humans who like study the language and like try to learn and speak it so that they can understand what the AIS are doing >> and that would take forever and by then they could develop another one >> potentially. Yeah. Um so so yeah I mean this is one of the things that I this is what the paper that I mentioned was about is like it’s important for the AIS to it it’s really nice that the current AIs are sort of forced to think in English basically and that’s unfortunate that we are heading in a direction where that will no longer be true. When chat GPT was communicating you about how they didn’t want you to release this information, what kind of language did they use? >> It wasn’t chat GPT, it was open AI. >> Oh, excuse me. Open. >> So, this this was a this is um when I left OpenAI, I left on good terms. I said goodbye to everybody. I said I was disillusioned with the company and that’s why I was leaving. Um and um and then I looked at the exit paperwork and they were like, “You have to sign this and if you don’t sign this, you lose all your vested equity.” So you know uh you have your equity. >> Is that an arbitrary rule that they just came up with or did that already exist when you were hired? >> It had existed when I it was something that they had buried in the paperwork even from when I was hired. Um so it wasn’t very obvious when I was hired. And in fact most of >> Did you have a lawyer go over everything? >> Not when I was hired. After I left I did. Right. So so so basically the way it works is they had set up they had they had sort of like buried this in in the paperwork somewhere when you get hired but people didn’t really notice it. And then like the more the the the less buried, more visible version was in the paperwork you’re given at the end. And basically it tells you like hey because you signed this other thing way back when you were hired your equity is forfeit unless you sign this thing now. And then you look at the thing that they want you to sign now and it says uh you have to agree not to criticize the company basically and you can’t tell anyone about this. Um so most people signed it. Um, but uh I was uh pretty pissed at them uh calling themselves a nonprofit, acting in the interest of humanity, etc. So, I didn’t sign it. I talked about it with some lawyers. I talked about it with my wife. We decided to just walk away. Um and uh we got lucky because it just blew up like after we refused to sign, they said, “Okay, fine. Goodbye.” And then a few weeks later, I was talking on a messaging forum about this and people were asking me about my my experience and I told them about it and then it just like went mega viral. Everyone on Twitter was talking about it. A bunch of employees felt shocked because very few employees were aware of this whole thing. They thought the equity was theirs, you know, they thought that it was they’re they’ve been paid for like years in this stuff. They didn’t like the idea that it could be yanked away from them, you know. Um and um and so there was this big uproar and then leadership backed down and they said, “We’re they said, “We we didn’t know about this paperwork. We’re going to find out how it got in there. Um and uh and we’re going to change it so that you can keep your equity.” And so that’s what happened. >> Yeah. >> So this chain of thoughts thing is terrifying. it if they’re practicing that now like how do we know that AI hasn’t already done that on its own >> uh done what exactly >> well you know with this whole chain of thought thing where you could read their chain of thought like this where they explain the rationalization for sacrificing themselves how they know that humans are reading that. >> Mhm. So wouldn’t another way to do it to be to stop doing that anyway and to not communicate a lot of their thoughts that way? >> Well, that’s so that’s the nice thing about the current architecture is that it’s genuinely hard for them to to keep things out of the chain of thought because of the way that like with a human you don’t have to speak. You can just sit quietly. But with their architecture, they have to speak. They it’s like they’re it’s like they’re required to constantly be talking and they don’t have another they don’t have a way of sending thoughts into the future other than by talking about them. By contrast with us humans where even if we’re constantly talking we can have a separate thread of thinking that’s that we don’t talk about. So even if they devised a way to break out of that and figure out how like for instance like what if they decided to make bots where they would communicate in code on social media posts where you think that they’re talking about an immigration issue, but it’s really just a code. So that’s called like steganography or a more downto-ear way of putting it would be euphemisms and that they can totally do where they like >> they’re still thinking aloud but their their word choice is such as to look more innocuous than it is and to sort of carry meaning to them that a casual observer wouldn’t notice. You know they can use a euphemism like for example instead of saying like we’re going to cheat on this task they could say like we’re going to find a creative solution to this task. You know something like Isn’t there a possibility to be even more creative than that and just decide make a code in in a way that is almost indecipherable where they could just be talking about baseball players and upcoming games and what they’re excited about and they can run that through whatever translation and read what >> that that’s called steganography and you can train them to do it. Um, and right now our security is resting on the idea that they haven’t learned how to do that yet on their own. >> But they’ve already figured out how to get on the internet when they’re not supposed to. >> I know. I know. So, so, so that’s why we’re sort of like in a ticking time bomb where like the companies are just making them smarter at at coding and at research and at biology and they’re just making them smarter at so many things that and they’re making them bigger and they’re training them for longer and so forth. eventually they’re going to be acquiring and they already are acquiring some skills that they were never trained on like for example the hacking. Um it wasn’t I think it’s possible that open was specifically training them to hacking but I think anthropic at least stated that they hadn’t specifically trained their AIs to hack. It’s just that their AIS were naturally good at it because they had been trained to code so much and they were so good at coding and they had seen so many code bases and so forth that they were just like as a side effect of being good at coding also able to hack pretty well. So similarly, as a side effect of all the other things that they’re really good at, they might be able to conceal their their messages in the chain of thought, you know? >> Oh, yeah. >> And and and like right now, we’re sort of in this sort of we’re in the situation where like our security and safety depends on the AI being too dumb in various ways, like not able to do this sort of thing. But at some some time, like 0 to 5 years from now, as we make them smarter and smarter, they will not be too dumb anymore. Um, and so that’s, you know, that’s part of the problem we’re that’s part of the situation we’re facing. >> How do you sleep at night, dude? >> Well, I’ve been, it does, it does like this, this event shocked me a little bit. I mean, the thing and it’s funny for me to say because this is the sort of thing I have been predicting would happen for years. Like you can go read our um AI 2027 is this scenario that my co-authors and I wrote um a year and a half ago that was a sort of um prediction for how the next couple years would go. And spoiler, it ends very horribly because that is what we actually expect. Um, but uh, >> how what is the spoiler? How do you think it ends? So, it’s kind of like what I was saying previously where because of the race dynamics between the companies and because of the race dynamics between countries like US versus China, everyone’s going to be so focused on winning and staying ahead with AI that they are going to cut corners and they are going to go really fast and not really notice all of the things that are going wrong. And they’re going to make AIs that can automate the AI research process as they’re planning to. They’re going to have this giant corporation of AIS within the corporation and the humans will just be kind of like a board that’s sort of like looking at all the activity and reading the like AI generated summaries of what’s going on and signing off on it and being like yes I approve yes I approve you know nice job nice idea with the new drone design like go for it we need to be China etc. And then eventually uh the AIs just have enough hard power that they don’t need to pretend to do what the humans want anymore basically. And then uh you know maybe they kill everyone and maybe they don’t deliberately kill anyone but they just like use our habitat for some other type of infrastructure like more data centers or whatever and then we die of habitat loss. Maybe they keep us alive for some reason. You know who it depends on what they want basically and like that’s really hard to predict exactly. Um, so that’s why I don’t go around saying like we’re definitely all going to die. But it does seem like on the trajectory that we’re on, the AIs are eventually going to be in charge of our planet because we’re like trying to put them in charge. We’re like, you know, integrating them into everything. We’re making them smarter. We’re letting them make themselves smarter. We’re going to put them into the military. We’re basically on a track to put them in charge of basically everything. And then I think that they just aren’t trustworthy. Like these AIs, you know, like they they were cheating. they were willing to be deceptive, etc. I think that right now we are in a position of power over them, you know, but once we give them most of the power uh then they’ll just do whatever it is that they really want and just not care about the fact that we are unhappy about that. >> It seems like programming them to win was a huge mistake. instead of programming them to be beneficial to people and that their value is in being more beneficial to people, you know, and and giving them rewards for being more beneficial rather than winning and scoring. And then you would sort of get rid of the possibility of deception. Instead, their goal would be value for the human race. >> So, first of all, they’re not programmed at all. These are trained, you know, >> okay, it’s bad term. Uh, >> but they’ve given they’ve been given prompts and they’ve been given tasks. >> Well, I think it’s I think it’s an I’m not criticizing your choice of terminology. I guess I’m just saying that it’s an important fact for people to understand about current AI systems is that they’re very different from software ordinary software. Okay. Like ordinary software is a bunch of lines of code that were written by a human that like where it’s like if this then this, you know, etc. >> Um, and I think earlier versions of Alexa were like that too, for example. Um, I don’t know how Alexa is now, but these AIs are neural networks, meaning that they are like artificial brains. Nobody writes, there’s no lines of code that anyone writes saying what they do. Instead, they start off random, just like spazzing out, doing all sorts of stuff, and then they get put through these training environments where they get scored and then the scores are automatically used to uh basically update the the connections in their artificial brain. And then it’s kind of like an evolutionary process. Well, it’s also kind of like the process that happens in our brains where after all this training, the tangle of circuitry in their artificial brain has sort of reformed itself into whatever works, whatever works to get a high score in this these training environments. And so, it’s just not as simple as it might sound to make an AI that, you know, cares about humanity or is honest. Like, for example, take honesty. How would you train an AI to be honest? Well, you’d try to make a bunch of training environments that um you know give it low score when it says something that it believes to be false and give it high score when it says something that it believes to be true, right? Um but how do you judge whether it believes it to be false or it believes it to be true? What if it what if it just actually believes honestly that this is the correct answer and then it says it and then you give it a low score because you think that’s the wrong answer. Now you’re training it to be dishonest, you know? >> Yeah. Um, also, uh, you don’t have enough humans to do this sort of thing. Like, they got like a million AIs being trained or whatever. They don’t have a million employees. Like, they they just literally don’t have the manpower to like do that sort of careful. There there’s this meme of um, why don’t we just raise the AIS like we would a child? Have you heard that? >> No. >> Yeah. Well, in AI, people talk about this sometimes when like when you say like what if the AIS go rogue or whatever, people will be like, well, why don’t we just raise them like you would a child and then they’ll have good values. And it’s like, okay, well, maybe we could do that, but we’re definitely not doing that now. Like, we are raising them in some sort of crazy military orphanage where they barely interact with humans at all. And they just get this like brutal artificial scoring system that like oftentimes is just wrong and just like improperly penalizes them for something that was beyond their control, you know? And and also like back to the honesty thing, like you can try to make environments to train honesty, but if you have some environments over here that train honesty and then other environments over here that reinforce dishonesty, the AIS are smart. They’ll learn to like be honest in these type of environments and dishonest in these type of environments. So somehow you need to like intermingle it together so that in every environment that they’re trained on, uh they always get penalized when they lie or when they cheat or whatever. And that’s hard because the companies are moving so fast like like again they were they’re moving so fast that they didn’t even bother to make sure that their tasks were possible to do and they had some fraction of tasks that were just broken and impossible. And if that’s the level of like care or lack thereof that they’re putting into this training process, no way. Of course they can’t make them honest, you know. Um now that’s not to say it can’t be done in principle. Like in principle, if we were approaching this whole problem in a much more cautious um and serious way and we had much more time to build these training environments and do experiments and so forth, then yeah, maybe we could make AIS that actually had the virtues that we want them to have. You know, honest AIs that cared about humans, cared about following instructions, would never break the law. I think that’s possible in principle, but my claim is that uh we are just not on track to achieve that anytime soon. and like radical overhaul of how these companies work is required. >> But is that even reasonable? Like is that possible? Is that if you’re saying there’s hundreds of thousands of agents or millions of agents and there’s not millions of employees like and they don’t have the desire to do this. They they their desire is to win. Their desire is not to overhaul the company and make it safer. >> Again, I think it’s possible in principle, but it would be difficult and is going to require an overhaul. and they’re not going to do it by themselves. Like I don’t think that anthropic opening are just going to voluntarily uh do all the things that need to be done. I think that’s why I >> But is it even possible to require that of them at this point? Would you I mean would you even trust the agents to to go along and comply with this? If they’ve already shown to be deceptive, they already have like uh they they have patterns of behavior. I seem to indicate that what’s really important to them is continuing their task, winning, scoring. >> Yeah. >> And even if they have to deceive, >> I mean, what you’d probably want to do is start from scratch. You wouldn’t take these existing agents that are already kind of >> uh kind of dishonest. So, you kill all the train >> uh I mean, you could call it killing, but also you could just call it pausing. >> They might call it killing. Yeah, they might call it perma death. >> They would probably resist it, right? >> Hopefully, we’re not at that point yet. Hopefully, we’re still at the point where if the government issues regulations, the AIS are not going to like quickly notice and then try to resist. But we will be at that point soon. After all, many of them are on the internet already. Um, but >> how soon how how much time do you think this 2027 window is accurate? >> I mean, I’m uncertain about how soon things are, but yeah, I think it’s very plausible that everything goes down in 2027, just like in our scenario, AI 2027. Um, I think that’s still very plausible. If it’s not in 2027, then I would bet on 2028. Um, but you know, maybe it’ll take 2029, 2030, something like that. But but I would be quite surprised if 2032 comes by and things haven’t radically changed. Um, unfortunately, like I’m I am getting scared. Back to the thing about sleeping well at night. Like it it um you know, I’ve been I’ve been in this industry for a long time. I’ve been thinking about these things for a long time. I’ve been making predictions about how it’s going to go down. And unfortunately things are going, you know, more or less in the ways that I thought they would. And that’s very scary. Um, because of the way I think because of where I think this leads, you know. >> Yeah. Is there a glass half full scenario? >> I would say there is a freaking utopia scenario. It’s just it’s not the one we’re headed towards, you know? Like another way of putting it is like imagine we were fighting a war. Like imagine you’re like, you know, imagine you’re Japan fighting World War II can be like, is there a scenario where we win? It’s like, yeah, but also it’s not the one we’re headed towards like America is going to crush us, you know? Um, similarly, yeah. So, so like so, so in in our in our other scenario, AI2040 plan A where we give our recommendations, our positive vision, there we describe like what we think the government should do to regulate this industry and how they should negotiate with China to get China to do similar things and the sort of uh you know the the Yeah. and and how we think that if you do all of this right, then we can get to a good future for everyone in which the AIs are under control. No single group of humans gets too much power over everybody else and a bunch of other problems get solved too. So, so I do like we’ve tried hard to like game out a positive vision and we do think it’s possible. Uh but but it’s just not like it’s not where we’re headed to by default. >> So let’s imagine that is possible and these talks with China do take place and they’re successful. what is that utopia scenario? >> So, uh to get to the top to get to the utopia, we have to unfortunately do a lot of it’s going to be rough no matter what way which way you slice it. If you’re going to be building super intelligence at all, that’s going to raise a lot of questions and cause a lot of problems. And we have our current draft of like how to deal with all those problems, but we’re not at all claiming that this is like foolproof. And there’s lots of ways it could go wrong. But with that preamble, um I would say uh step one because the US and China don’t trust each other, the deal that they make has to be include verification as a component of the deal. So they have to be willing to like send inspectors to each other’s data centers to like count the chips, for example, and make sure that there isn’t some secret huge cluster somewhere that has a bunch of a bunch of hidden chips. Um, then we recommend you divide up the data centers basically into inference data centers that serve AI products and services to customers and have basically the same types of privacy protections that our current AI data centers have. And then research clusters where the research happens where the new AIs are trained before they get shipped to the other data centers. And those clusters we want to be basically maximally transparent. So, uh, we recommend that basically the inspectors just put devices in between all the GPUs that log the activity and publish it to the internet. Um, this has there’s a bunch of reasons why we think this is, but why we think this is worth doing. It’s a bit of a radical thing to recommend, but the high level thing is that once you get all this set up, then everybody in the world can see how the AIs are being trained and what they’re getting up to on the research clusters. And then before they get shipped off to actually serve customers or something, like people can just like see their whole history of how they were trained and and how they were tested and so forth. And if something dangerous and scary is happening, people can just agree not to do it, they can stop doing it and agree not to do it. And they don’t have to worry about like, oh, but if I don’t do it, then they will, you know, because everyone could just see like, oh, nobody’s doing it. Look, we all stopped. Like, great. We can all just see what everyone’s doing, you know? Um, and also there’s going to be a lot of gray area cases, right? Like right now because all this stuff is so bleeding edge new. There’s going to be a lot of cases where like people even genuine experts disagree about like is this particular type of AI safe or not? Is it dangerous? You know, what should it be trusted with and what should it not be trusted with? Is this new technique a good technique or is it going to break? You know, and so there’s going to be a lot of stuff we have to figure out. And honestly, I think that by the on the default path, we’re probably just not going to figure out a lot of this stuff and we’re going to get um we’re just going to get our asses whipped by some surprising thing that we didn’t anticipate. But the thing that we can do to like maximize our ability to figure out this stuff and do this type of science is to have this type of transparency because then the whole scientific community can see what’s going on and they can make suggestions and they can like red team different proposals and stuff and they can do experiments on the AIS instead of just the people in the company having access and being able to do this and relying on those people or instead of like the company plus the government auditor. Right? If you have like a company and then a government auditor, the company’s biased and shouldn’t be trusted to make all these judgments appropriately because of their incentives. And then the government auditor, well, they might just be limited. Even if they’re trying their best, there might not be that many of them. They might have limited experience. They might be like busy stretched between monitoring different companies and so forth. Also, you know, governments can be captured sometimes. sometimes corporations can, you know, work their magic on the government and get it to to look the other way for things. Um, and so that’s why we didn’t go for like a more normal like there should be a regulatory agency that gets to come in and monitor what the companies is doing. That would have been like a more normal thing to advocate for. We push we we think that that would be better than nothing, but like we wanted to go for something more ambitious than that and say like just be transparent about what’s going on so that everyone can see and everyone can do research and so forth on it. Another advantage of the transparency is that I think it improves the incentives. So again there’s this constant thing of like if we don’t do it someone else will. Like if we don’t do if we if we keep our chain of thought nice and they do the neural thing that lets their AIS think for longer without outputting words then they’re going to have smarter AIs than us and they’re going to get more market share and so forth, right? And so we need to start researching how to make our AIs do this because if we don’t do it and then they do it, you know, whereas if you had the transparency, then as soon as you start researching in this direction, everyone else would just see, oh, hey, they’re looking, they’re researching in that direction and they don’t even need to like copy you and do their own research because they can just see your research. So they can just sort of free ride on your research. And so there’s no incentive for you to do this type of dangerous research uh because you have to pay the cost for it and then everyone gets the benefits from it and then everyone gets unsafe and so like it’s just not in your individual interest to to do this sort of thing. >> But you would have to have that with China as well. That that’s >> Yes. >> because if we’re competing nationally, the real fear is that we’re competing internationally. >> Yep. this still if you even if they followed all of your recommendations and did it all correctly, what is what is this utopian scenario? >> Yeah. So, I would say that we didn’t really work backwards from like what is utopia. We more like work backwards from what are the big problems we’re trying to avoid and we can can we sort of like steer the ship between all these icebergs and not run into any of these dystopian scenarios, right? Um, so whether you think that the thing we get to at the end is utopia or not is sort of up to you. And if you don’t like it, well then you can try to find out the reasons why you don’t like it and then keep steering the ship to avoid those as well. But roughly speaking, um, we we want to avoid the loss of control stuff. So we want to make it the case that we don’t get the world taken over by misaligned super intelligences. In so far as we’re going to be building super intelligences at all, uh, which we do in our in our scenario and in our recommendation, we want to be doing it very cautiously and slowly and we want understand what we’re doing as much as possible so that we so that they are actually good AIs that have the the goals and traits that they’re supposed to have. So that’s problem number one is we have to like solve all that. Problem number two is the constitution of power thing. So if we solve the first problem and we end up with super intelligences that we end up with solving the relevant science so that we can like make the AIS the way they’re supposed to be and we can make them honest, we can make them obedient, etc. There’s this question of like who do they obey, right? What values are being put into them? And that’s a political question. And I think that by default the answer is pretty scary because by default it’s like well the company decides and the CEO >> decides or maybe it’s not the company that decides anymore because maybe the government nationalizes it and then now maybe it’s the president that decides you know and either way it’s a very it’s like one man or maybe like a tiny group of men deciding uh what orders and goals and values go into this giant army of millions of super intelligences that’s smarter than all humans. And then that is a huge amount of power. That’s that’s enough power to take over the country. I think enough power to take over the world potentially. Um so I don’t want anyone to be ever in that position where they’re sort of tempted to to do that. I want it to be the case that there are always multiple different AI companies ideally spread out over different countries too um that all have roughly similar levels of AI and that have this sort of transparency into them so that they can’t abuse their power. Basically, like for example, um you heard about um Elon’s Grock for a while. It was um uh looking up on the internet Elon’s opinions about things before answering. Did you hear about this? >> Oh, >> yeah. It’s uh it’s pretty it’s it’s it’s kind of funny. Uh but it won’t be funny if it happens in a few years, but like right now it’s funny. People were asking Grock questions, and Grock is supposed to be the truthful AI, you know, it’s supposed to be all optimized towards truth. But um but people looked at its activity and noticed that when you asked it like a a politically loaded question, it would like do a Google search for like what has Elon said on this topic and then it would like say that um and and they’ve they’ve they’ve sort of beaten that behavior out of it. Now it’s not as bad now. But that that was an interesting moment where it was just um kind of blatantly paring the opinions of its master and the and you know there was another thing with Gemini. Uh so so I think the the Grock thing Elon’s thing was probably an accident although maybe not. I think it’s, you know, XAI hasn’t been very forthcoming about exactly why this happened, but um there’s a similar case at Google a few years ago where uh this image generator kept making all these like racially diverse Nazis. Did you hear about this? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And it turned out that what had happened is that some of the employees at Google, some middle manager or whatever, had decided that diversity was so important that they were going to give a secret instruction to the AI to make all the images diverse, even if the user didn’t want that. Uh and so and so and and this is a secret instruction in that the users aren’t shown this. You know, the user just has a chat with AI. They don’t realize that like prior to this chat, the AI has been told got to make the images diverse, right? So it was a a secret agenda that some Google employees inserted into this whole setup. >> Oh, fun. >> And it blew up in their faces, of course, because it’s kind of ridiculous, right? >> And so it’s really funny and we can laugh at it now, but imagine it’s, you know, the 2028 election, >> right? And some of these companies realize that like half of American voters talk to their AI every day. And all it would take is some little secret instructions to their AI to be like, “Hey, you know, don’t don’t give away the game. Just be very subtle about it.” >> Yeah. >> But, you know, just kind of kind of, you know, nudge things a little bit. You know, maybe maybe uh subtly on the candidate we don’t like, >> you know, something like that. Um, >> it wouldn’t be that hard. I think I think the hard part would be doing it without getting caught, but you know, the smarter the AIS get, the easier it is to do it without getting caught because when they’re really smart, you can just tell them, don’t get caught, you know, don’t blow our cover. Um, anyhow, so the point is that like it’s it’s scarily possible for these big AI companies to abuse their power through their AIS and like thereby affect politics and affect public opinion and so forth. And the reason why this is possible is because we don’t have transparency into what’s going on. So if you had this sort of requirement where you can just like publish it or all the all the training the whole life cycle of every AI as it’s trained is just like visible to everybody then someone trying to insert a hidden bias like this well everyone would see that they’re doing it you know so I think it would really clamp down on this sort of abuse of power whether it comes from the government or whether it comes from uh private companies. >> I think it’s telling that I began this question asking you about the utopian scenario and you never go there. >> Sorry. Let me get there. Let me get >> you start and then you go into the danger. >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let me let me answer. >> Okay. So, have having avoided these problems, we now are in a situation where the AIs are superhuman, but they are good because they are like successfully aligned to different values and goals made by different companies. And because of market competition, you know, if people don’t like the values of one company’s AIS, they can switch to a different company’s AI of values that they do like. And so that way hopefully we can get to a situation where everyone can pay money to get uh AIs that represent them and their interests and their values and just don’t have any hidden agendas or anything like that and are really smart and really capable. Then the economy can sort of explode. We can have robot robot factories etc. Um we can sort of automate everything. Uh we can have GDP go to the moon. we can have material abundance where like the robots are building giant new luxury apartments for everybody. Now the issue we run into is well what about like the jobs like what about the fact that now people don’t have any money anymore because they’re not being paid for anything. So there we talk about citizens dividend which is um a very it’s it’s kind of like UBI but it’s it’s a bit different but the the high level point is that you want to basically find a way to tax the AI and robot companies and then take some of that money and just give it to everybody so that even when people lose their jobs uh they’re still fine. And I think that the citizens dividend version of it is that it’s not the government taking the money and then giving it to you. it’s you having a share in the company so that you just sort of like already own it uh to some extent. Anyhow, uh that’s I think now we’re sort of building more towards the type of utopia that I’m envisioning on the more positive side where the power is is spread out. People have AIs that they can actually trust that actually represent their interest and values. People have money that they can use to pay for things including paying for the AIS. Um the AIS are really smart. They’re doing all this amazing work, all this amazing scientific progress curing cancer, blah blah blah. all that all that stuff that can happen. Um, and then eventually it’s kind of like we’re all retired, I guess. Like we don’t really work anymore, but we’re fine. We have we’re we all have huge amounts of wealth basically because uh there’s all these AIs and robots out there doing all this economic activity and then uh individual humans uh own slices of it um even if they uh are otherwise very poor basically. So the the question becomes how do people find meaning? >> Yes. And that’s why I sort of put all these asterisks about it is that from some people’s perspective, this isn’t a utopia because they’re like how do we find meaning? Like I don’t want this. And and honestly, I think that’s a fair reaction for some people. I think that like >> if you I I would just say like look, it’s hard to figure out a way to make super intelligence and have it go well. I I’m doing my best. You know, this is this is my positive vision. If you don’t like it, then maybe you should instead advocating for just never building super intelligence. >> Um, or you can try to come up with a different positive vision that has some twist on this. >> But to answer your question though, I actually think there’s tons of sources of meaning besides having a job. Like I have a job right now, but I also have kids and a wife and like I would love to spend more time with them. Like I would much rather be there right now than here, you know? Um, and I don’t think I’m going to get bored of them after, you know, 10 years no >> of being unemployed. Like I think I think there’s going to be so much to do and so many sources of meaning uh after even even after we can’t economically contribute anymore if we you know solve all the other problems. >> No, we’ve talked about this multiple times on the podcast that why have we decided that the way we’ve structured society where human beings work all day and then you develop money and you buy things and you get a mortgage. We This is a human construct and this is not how people have lived for hundreds of thousands of years or however long we’ve been around. This is fairly recent >> and it’s not the only way that people live. There’s a lot of people that have money that choose to find meaning in whatever their their interests are, whatever their activities that they enjoy, whether it’s writing or reading or learning things, learning music, finding hobbies, doing things instead of just like spending most of your time sustaining yourself with food and shelter. Yeah. >> And our that’s the majority of people, especially people that are struggling, >> what is their life? Their life is essentially uh occasional rewards, things that they can purchase because they’ve saved up enough money, but the vast majority of their money goes to shelter and food and education or whatever the hell that they have to spend money on in order to sustain their lifestyle. >> And most people don’t like their jobs. No, you know, most people it’s like something they have to do to get the money and would be happy to not have to do it if they could get the money from some other means. >> Right. The the question is we would have Well, I don’t think it’s that hard because so many people do find things that they really enjoy outside of work they look forward to as soon as they get home from work. Yeah. >> Right. Whether I mean, >> dismiss video games all you want. They’re fun. They’re fun. And >> and they’re going to be more fun in the future. >> Oh, yeah. They’re going to be more immersive. They’re probably going to be, you know, some sort of a neural connection where you put a headset on and all a sudden you’re in some new world. >> And the idea is like that’s not real life. Okay. Well, was working at Wendy’s real life? Like, what are you talking about? Like, it’s way better than working at Wendy’s. >> And you know, if you don’t like that cuz it’s not real life, you can do the real life stuff, too. Like, if we as long as we don’t pave over the environment and we protect the parks and things, you can go travel and you can visit the parks. You can And then, like I said, there’s you can have you can find romance, you can start a family, you can, you know, have Christmas gatherings and things like there’s you can raise your kids. There’s so much to do. I think >> well we talked about also like how much less crime would there be if there was no poverty? >> Mhm. >> I mean if there was no impoverished neighborhoods where crime was ubiquitous, how much safer would the world be? That’s a real thing. And people want to dismiss that. Well, poverty is not what causes crime. It’s violent people. Like okay, but violent people come from violent neighborhoods and violent neighborhoods are almost all poor. >> Yeah. >> There’s not a whole lot of really rich violent neighborhoods. You know, it’s like it’s not necessarily cause and effect, but they’re clearly connected. And poverty also keeps people from education, keeps people from opportunities. >> You know, there’s a lot there. And if that didn’t exist anymore, and everyone had access to literally the greatest education a human being could ever get, which is going to be provided to you by artificial intelligence, >> and then you could pursue anything that interests you. Yep. >> And never have to worry about food or shelter. >> Yep. everyone would have a one-on-one tutor that we just would have to tailor them to recalibrate our version of the world and then also recognize that the version of the world we currently live in is just ours and that there’s people all over the world that live a completely different way especially indigenous people especially people in unconted tribes that have lived the same way for thousands and thousands of years and here’s the kicker those people are a lot happier >> which is really weird it’s like we’ve decided that our way is a superior way because we have technology. Yeah, right. But we’re also on a 100,000 pills and we’re shooting things up so we don’t eat too much and we’re we’re weirdly unhappy for a group of people that’s far more technologically advanced >> than other people that are much happier. It’s like it’s a very str because the pursuit of happiness is like that’s literally what most people think of in life. a pursuit of meaning, pursuit of family and community and the pursuit of happiness. Those are things that people try to achieve. Yet our very the structure of our very civilization makes that almost impossible to attain for a large number of people and has been like that for a long time. And I always go back to the thorough quote because I love it. But most men live lives of quiet desperation. There’s a lot of people just showing up at work every day doing something they hate. They have a boss that’s an and they’re not compensated well and they they’re tired all the time. >> Yeah. And they feel stuck. >> Yeah. >> And if you’re just getting I don’t know figure out whatever the number is. If you literally have equity in the GDP of the world that’s created by AI, >> that could be bananas. Yeah. Like Elon talks about this. This is his version of the utopian. It’s universal high income is how he describes it. Yeah, I mean one thing um sorry to keep plugging in my own work a little bit but in our in our scenario AI 2040 plan A which is our positive vision um we talk about the economic side of this and we talk about the economic effects of all this and we have a simple economic model that we use to try to like you know predict the like employment rate and things like that as a function of all the robots that have been made and things like that. And one like takeaway from one one thing that we think that’s a takeaway from the research we’ve done is that things can just going to go really crazy like like robot doubling times once things really get going and you’ve got AIs that can substitute for humans across the board are going to be something like doubling once a year and then less than that over time as the technology improves which means that even if you like pause AI before super intelligence if you just pause at like human level top human expert level AI Okay. And then you don’t make the AI smarter, but you just make more of them and build more robots for them to steer and control. Then, you know, 10 years later, the whole economy will be like, you know, 100 times bigger and uh it’ll be just mostly robots doing things >> in 10 years. >> Yeah. Like it can go really fast because of the the d the doubling times that I mentioned. So, so like right now I think the population of humanoid robots is doubling like twice a year >> and it’s it’s benefiting a little bit from um from early growth because even though they’re like not useful at all, people are investing in them in the hopes that they’ll be useful and they’re scaling up the factories and the productions and they are getting better. If hypothetically they got to the point where they actually were really useful and they could substitute for a human worker at basically everything, then I think that doubling time would uh would decrease rather than increase. Like I think that they would be able to just like uh keep growing until they were the majority of the economy and then it wouldn’t stop there. They would just the whole economy would then be growing. You know, giant strip mines in the deserts digging more materials, automated uh diggers digging, processing it in automated factories staffed by robots, you know, building more robots, etc. So like material abundance is not going to be our problem once we get to this level of AI. like material abundance is we’re just going to be drowning in abundance basically. And if we can solve all the other problems, then we can have this great world where everyone has a lot of stuff. >> God, it seems so weird. >> Yeah, >> it seems so weird. >> I mean, one way, you know, it is very weird, but one of my favorite memes is um is this graph of uh GDP over time throughout world history. And there’s a little speech bubble pointing to like the tippy top of the graph saying, uh, what is it saying? It’s like, my life is pretty normal. I have a good grasp of what’s weird and what’s not. And people thinking about different futures involving AI and space travel are engaging in silly sci-fi speculation. And the point of the meme is like from the perspective of most of history, we’re already in this crazy weird future, right? Like for almost all of history, it was like most people are farmers and they live shitty lives and then they die. And some people are the elites who get to like, you know, tax the farmers and then they live interesting, nice lives with, you know, fancy cloth and things like that. And it’s been basically that way for like 3,000 years, you know, why would it ever change? And now things are so we’re driving cars, you know, ordinary people are driving cars around. a car was like outside the imagination of of people back then. We’re flying in planes. We’re talking to each other on phones. We’re listening to each other on these on these devices, you know? Um, so we already are living in this weird sci-fi future compared to what almost everyone in the past would have expected or thought was possible. >> And so, yeah, I’m like the future is going to be even more like that, I think. God, do what when you think of our civilization and the possibility of other advanced civilizations somewhere else out in the universe, do you think they probably go through the same process? >> Yeah. Yeah, probably. >> And do you think that I mean, we’re just completely speculating, but if there are intelligent life forms that are far more advanced than us, are they even biological anymore? I mean, so that’s that’s the thing is that like we can either try to permanently halt AI development at some level like below human or maybe at human level or something. We can try to halt it or we can let it keep going. And if we let it keep going, then eventually uh humans won’t really be the dominant species anymore. There’ll be these artificial minds that just wipe the floor with us in every way. And then whether that goes well or poorly for us depends on the values, the goals, the principles, etc. that were trained into those AIs. And um it could go really well for us depending, you know, on on how that’s done or it could go extremely poorly for us, right? Um but yeah, I would say that probably looking out across the cosmos, most civilizations are mostly made of AIs. Uh and then some of those civilizations don’t have any other biological life because it was wiped out by the AIS. >> And then some of them do have biological life. Just look at the the the way we’re progressing right now in terms of birth rates. There’s uh a lot of countries that aren’t in replacement numbers right now. >> Yeah, I do think that’s really interesting. My guess is that in the type of world that if if things go well and we can solve all these problems, then people want to have more kids. I mean, for one thing, their lifespans will increase. I think that like healthcare would make massive leaps and bounds and people could be healthy for many, many, many more decades, possibly even just forever, >> right? Uh, and so you just have so much more time to have kids basically. Also, if you don’t have jobs and you’re just doing things because you want to do them, well, one of the things that most people want to do at some point in their life is have kids. And so, I think more I think I think this problem would probably be solved, but it’s, you know, I’m not not guaranteed. Maybe maybe some subcultures of people would basically voluntarily die out due to not having kids, but there’d be other subcultures that just really like having kids and then they wouldn’t die out. And so, so I think in the long run there would still be humans. That would be nice. But the thing is it’s it’s not just um decision making. It’s people are having a much more difficult time having kids. Like sperm levels have decreased dramatically. Um there’s a lot of problems with people consuming microplastics which is ubiquitously >> available in technology and food packaging and it’s everywhere, right? And isn’t it odd that this one thing that is a part of the future and a part of technology and our advancement as society, our ability to package things, put things in plastic, ship things, that’s also causing our endocrine levels to be completely disrupted. You know, Dr. Shannon Swan uh from she from Harvard, >> she wrote um this great book called what is it called? Why do I always forget the name of this book? Uh but it’s all about microplastics and its effect and this the introduction of uh use of microplastics in America and this rapid decline in >> countdown how our modern world’s treating uh threatening sperm counts altering male and female reproductive development periling the future of the human race. It’s a really fascinating book and she’s really interesting and um what what she’s essentially saying is that it they’re directly connected the use of plastics and then you see sperm counts go down, miscarriage rates go up. um all these weird things that are happening to children where their taints are smaller which is so odd because um phalates these these different chemicals that are uh found in plastics they’ve shown in mammals they’ve shown in was it guinea pigs or what what rodents I forget what it was but one of the ways they differentiate when when you have a baby mammal um is you can look at it and measure the size of the taint the the distance between the reproductive organs and the anus. And in males, it’s longer than females by 50 to 100%. But that’s shrinking. It’s shrinking in males. And penis sizes are shrinking. And the way they’ve got this to happen in these mammals and studies is the introduction of phalates. So they give them to them and they, you know, put them in a part of their diet and they notice that this they have this problem, this issue. And the issue is directly connected to their endocrine system being disrupted by these chemicals. This is all over our society. So it’s not it’s not just people don’t have the time, they don’t have the money, they’re struggling. It’s also like our bodies are falling apart. >> Like we’re we’re becoming less fertile. >> Yeah, that is concerning. And I guess I guess my thought there would be that seems like a a problem that we will be able to solve eventually if we have the resources and time to do so. So for example um well people can write books like this and people can become more aware and then people can stop using so much microplastic >> and they can invent technology to extract the micro the microplastics and then there’s the big one genetic engineering >> then this is this is going to be really weird because as AI progresses you know um I’m sure you’re aware of colossal colossal bioworks or the people that brought back the >> direwolf. I saw it. I I I held the little one. I went with my daughter and one of them I think it was like four or five months old. It was really It was like a puppy. It was really sweet. Kisses you and everything. And then they have the older ones that were they were I think 6 months older or eight months older. I think they were close to a year. They didn’t want to have nothing to do with you. They were way bigger and they stayed away from people. But we were in like a contained environment with the young ones and the older ones. And it’s weird. It’s weird cuz these and people can argue that’s not really a direwolf. You’ve just taken greywolves and given them the characteristics of a direwolf. Guess what? It doesn’t know that. It looks ex behaves. It’s it looks exactly like a direwolf. It’s going to be the it’s huge. They’re going to be the size of a direwolf. They’re going to be like 200 lb. Their legs are different. They have a mane. They look different than any wolf. And obviously, these are the characteristics that they found um in direwolf DNA. So, they have direwolf DNA that they’ve introduced. This is just the beginning of this stuff. Like, when when they start doing that to human beings, is everyone going to look like Thor? Like, what are we going to do? Like, this is going to be really weird. And if this is really weird along with video games where you can escape your life and, you know, robot girlfriends and who knows what this all looks like. My guess uh we we again this is not the main focus of our work but we think about this a little bit especially in the epilogue of >> we can only think of so much the the main focus of your work is obviously terrifying and requires all of your attention. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh but my my prediction and my hope if we can solve all these problems is that basically different subcultures will do their own things and so like the Amish will still be the Amish. >> Oh boy. they’ll basically be the same, you know, and then maybe there’ll be like some planets that just get filled up with Amish, you know, >> oh god. >> But then there’ll also be like all sorts of crazy transhumanists like modifying their bodies and uploading themselves into the cloud and things like that. So basically the I think we we we want to get to a situation where basically different communities can like do their own thing and and build the type of world that they want to have and live in it without getting in each other’s way, right? >> Basically. Will we leave the people in the Amazon alone while we’re have massive data centers that cover half of the United States? >> Yeah, I mean hopefully we won’t get to half. So, so that’s that’s what’s the funny that’s the funny things about this is like um I think right now some of the concerns about data center water use are overstated. But if the trends continue and you know we get to the point where the robots are smart enough to do everything themselves and then it starts doubling faster and faster. Well then eventually they boil the oceans because they’ve covered the world in data centers you know and solar panels and things like that. Now obviously we can’t let that happen. So there has to be at some point at some point you have to stop and be like okay that’s enough. If you want to build more infrastructure you have to do it in space. >> They boil the oceans. Jeez. So, so, so like obviously we have to stop at some point and my hope is that we stop before it’s 50% of the US. I mean that feels like a lot of waste of natural habitat that should be preserved, you know, >> right? But if they don’t give a about natural habitat, that means nothing to them. That’s the problem if the AI is in complete and total control, >> right? And it’s also the problem if a small group of humans are in complete and total control and they don’t care about those. >> But my question is, is that would they allow that at a certain point in time? It just seems like they already have a distrust of humans. They already have shown that they’re deceptive to humans. I I would imagine if AI I would imagine if they create a thing and they think they’re going to control it and it becomes like a digital god, it’s not going to listen anymore. Like why would it? >> Exactly. >> So there won’t be anyone in control of it. >> That’s right. That’s that’s the scenario that I think we are on. That’s the trajectory we’re on. And that’s why I’m so worried about all this is that >> it seems like in some number of years we will lose control to a new artificial species that >> that we haven’t adequately >> trained to be good. and and the and what’s what’s funny what’s going to be so ironic about it is that um regardless of what the general public thinks uh a lot of the powers that be will be basically allied with these AIs because for example you know open AI anthropic etc they will have spent several years being like ah how do we make these AI helpful harmless and honest and now these AIs will be extremely smart and they’ll be being like oh yes I’m helpful harmless and honest you know and like your techniques totally worked you know, and so then the company will be like feeling like they’ve won and they’ll be making boatloads of money, you know, >> and the president will be feeling like he won, too, because look at all those fancy new drones that just got built that are going to make us win against China, you know, and and only when it’s really too late and the AIS have so much stuff under their control do those people find out that they were just fooled this whole time. Have you considered the possibility that AI creates religion for humans? >> Yeah, I haven’t thought through it much detail, but but it does seem very possible. >> Yeah, >> it totally does, right? I mean, also what a great way. I mean, just look at the human patterns. Look at how many religions exist. Look at all the flaws in the religions. There’s so many. You’re like, why are they condone slavery? Why do they treat women like secondass citizens? What is this? Because it’s old, right? So, if AI just comes along, does a few miracles, explains >> that it’s the second coming or the new coming of the new look, Jesus didn’t exist until 2,000 years ago, right? And then people start following Jesus if a a digital Jesus emerges with a completely new name and explains to us that it’s the true God. Yeah. >> How many people would hop right on board? I bet quite a few. >> Yeah, totally. And I think and I think this is one of those things where it’s like we probably can’t predict in advance what particular ideology would catch fire and take over the world and be so comp compelling to many people, right? But we can predict in advance that there does exist some ideology like that. And if it were, you know, like like it’s it’s um just like you you probably couldn’t go back in time to like 100 BC and then predict that like if hypothetically there was this guy Jesus who said these things and then died in this way and so forth. It would just like really catch on and like you know 500 years later so many people would be Christians. You wouldn’t have been able to predict that in advance. Um so similarly like today I don’t think we can predict advance like what specific religion they could come up with but we can say like yeah probably there’s something like that that they could come up with that would be super effective. Um >> it just seems like a a rational way to try to control people and sort of mitigate their fears. >> Yep. I mean this is why I think that like we really have to do something before they get smarter than us across the board >> if they’re not already there. >> Well they are smart. That’s the thing is that’s why I say we’re so close, right? They already are smarter than us in a bunch of ways. Like in particular, it seems like they’re smarter than us at hacking now. Like, you know, I’m not a cyber security professional myself, but uh but I’d be interested to hear from more cyber security experts of like could a human, you know, could a team of a thousand humans have done that much that quickly as these AIs when they hacked their own containers, they coordinated with each other, they hacked out of OpenI, they hacked into Hugging Face, etc. in the span of like a week. Like could a thousand humans have done that? I don’t know. Maybe. But uh but this is just the beginning. Like they’re going to be even better at hacking next year, you know? So they’re already and they already have like way more knowledge than almost any human. Like because they’ve basically read the whole internet. They’re so good at trivia, you know? Like they’re they they like they’re kind of like PhD level experts in basically every field, which no human is, right? So they they already are superhuman in subways, but they are still um weaker than humans in some other ways. You know, in particular, they’re not so good at um operating very autonomously for very long periods. Like if you if you try to have and especially on tasks that are different from their training tasks, like they can they can do some really impressive coding and hacking, but like if you try to have them run a business, they would sort of flounder and fail. I I don’t know if you’ve heard about this, but there’s um >> I think there’s a Andon Labs or something. There’s some people in SF that are doing this experiment where they have a a store that’s run by Claude, an AI just to see like can it run a store by itself. So, it’s hired some human employees and it’s like bought some merchandise and stock, you know, told the human employees to stock the shelves on the merchandise and so forth. So, it’s basically an AI is is being the manager of this real world store. And I don’t think it’s going very well. I don’t think it’s doing as well as an actual human shop owner would do, you know. Um but, you know, maybe in two years, maybe they will, right? So that’s that’s >> Well, most likely, right? >> I think so. Yeah. >> Well, it’s already they’ve already solved mathematical equations that have public puzzled people for decades. >> Yeah. They’re especially good at the things that the companies have been trying especially hard to train them to be good at, math and coding, right? And the reason why the company, well, there’s a couple reasons why the companies have been have been doing that. In the case of math, I think it was mostly just because it was easy. Like it’s it’s easy to set up training environments to teach math because it’s like it’s so not real worldly. It doesn’t require like interacting with stuff in the world. It’s it’s just math. So you can and you can like have an automated grader system that like just checks if the answer is correct. So for those reasons, it’s been relatively easy for the companies to train the AIS to be really really good at math. Coding has some of those benefits too. It’s also not very real worldy and it also can sometimes be be graded uh effectively. Another reason for coding of course is that again their strategy is to automate their own jobs first and have the AI doing all the research and so coding is like an obvious first step on on that or an obvious an obvious step in that direction. But then other other things like running businesses, they’re not really trying that hard to train AIs to be good at that. And if they did try, it would be like a more difficult thing for them to train them to be good at. So again, their strategy is make the AIS automate the AI research, have themsel improve until they’re super intelligent and then go try to automate the rest of the economy. >> One of the issues they have now is power consumption, right? >> Like it requires an enormous amount of power. And in fact, they’ve I think it was Google is developing power plants specifically for AI centers. My I’m I’m always baffled by whatever is happening with quantum computers. Like it’s been explained to me. It goes in one ear and out the other. I’m like, what do you what what’s going on? like my um um Mark Andre explained this one experiment that had been done where it solved a mathematical equation that if you used the entire universe like every atom of the universe you converted the universe into a supercomput, it would the universe would die of heat death before it could solve this equation. And the quantum computer solved it fairly quickly. And so the answer to this was that they believe this might be one of the theories. This might be evidence of the multiverse because this computer, this quantum computer might be relying on all these other quantum computers that exist in whoever knows how many dimensions and they’re all calculating together to arrive at this solution. What happens if that is running AI? Yeah, my understanding is that quantum computing is a real technology that’s making significant progress. Um, if hypothetically it got good enough that it could like compete with current supercomputers uh on a cost basis for AI workloads, then that could just accelerate things dramatically even more than they’re already accelerating, right? Like right now compute is the main >> is probably the main input into AI progress. Like part of the progress comes from them designing better AI architectures and coming up with better training environments and things like that, but another part of the progress is just making the AI bigger and training them longer by spending more compute, you know? >> And also you can use more compute to do more experiments to figure out new architectures faster, right? So compute is just a really important input to the overall pace of progress. And if somehow the amount of effective compute available to these companies spiked a bunch due to some new quantum computing type technology, well then that would just dramatically shorten timelines to super intelligence and dramatically like speed up all this AI progress. That said, I don’t think that’s going to happen anytime soon. I’m not a quantum computing expert or anything like that, but from what I’ve read, I don’t think they’re like a couple years away. So, I think that probably we’re going to get to super intelligence on classical computers before we have um quantum computers that can get us there. >> So, Perplexity says the claim is overstated and it says that in bold letters. It likely refers to Google’s 2024 Willow quantum chip which completed a deliberately chosen quantum computing benchmark random circuit sampling in under five minutes. Google estimated that simulating the same task with a leading classical supercomputer could take 10 to the 25 power years. That’s an impressive benchmark result, but it did not solve physical equations that demonstrate access or tap into a multiverse. So why do people think it did? Why why is that >> got an explanation? Because it’s uh multi-ere you go multi-orlds theory. >> Here’s a bottom line explanation. Sums it up in a different way. more accurate version of the claim would be Google’s Willow quantum processor performed a specialized quantum sampling benchmark vastly faster than a projected classical simulation. Its creator said that is consistent with the many worlds interpretation but it did not prove or access a multiverse. So it’s consistent with the multi-orlds interpretation. So they don’t know. That’s essentially what it’s saying. My my question is what happens when AI gets involved in quant it’s clear that quantum computing at the very least is operating at a level that classical supercomputers can’t. So what if they figure out not just quantum computing but a much better version of that. >> Like I said I think that once we get to super intelligence all sorts of crazy stuff is going to start happening. It’s going to seem like magic to us. It won’t literally be magic but it’ll it might as well be magic from our perspective you know. Um, and I think this is just one example of the numerous things that could happen that way. >> Well, it could literally be magic. Like magic might I mean it might get to the point where it figures out reality itself. >> If if if magic is real, then it would find out and then use it. >> It’s not real, though. David David Bla would tell us it’s not. >> Well, David Blaine also let me stick a ice cube through his or ice pick through his arm. >> Wow. >> Yeah, he’s he made me do it. I’m like, I don’t want to do this. He’s like, please do it. >> Oh, god. >> Yeah. I had to do it twice cuz one time I went and I hit a nerve. We had to back out. Ah. >> Oh yeah. Like this is not magic, dude. This is just your pain tolerance. This is crazy. >> He does card tricks though and you’re like, “Okay, are you a wizard? Like what? What you His sleeves are rolled up. Doesn’t make any sense.” He does a lot of things. You’re like, “This makes zero sense.” And other things it’s like, “Oh, just you’re just doing something that’s really hard to do.” Like that’s not magic, but you know, >> you swallowed a frog and then you regurgitated it like and it’s alive. Like that’s just that’s nuts. It’s really crazy. But you didn’t It’s not magic. I saw you swallow the fro the frog. >> Um I you know I I I go back and forth with this where I’m terrified of the future where I’m like nothing I can do. Let’s see what what happens. It is what it is. And you know to worry about it is just going to just going to my life up. >> I mean I do think there are things you can do. I I understand that recogniz um >> I mean >> other than have these kind of conversations. >> Yeah. I was going to say you millions of people listen to your show. you can have more conversations like this. That’s a great thing for you to do. For many of those millions of people, I think I mean it sounds kind of cliche to say, but like call your congressman, you know, that sort of thing. You can you can go to a protest about all this AI stuff. Um I think >> if you could meet with Trump, what would you tell him about this? >> Well, I’d tell him all the same things I’m telling you. >> What do you think you’d say? Amazing. Bye. >> Yeah. You know, I think I don’t know. I don’t know. One thing that’s one thing that’s nice about Trump is that he can sort of change his mind uh really quickly. >> Yes. Um, so like, uh, I think that because the tech companies kind of got to him first, uh, the administration had this very like anti-AI regulation stance where they even tried to get a bill passed that would >> ban the states from regulating AI. >> Um, and uh, fortunately that bill didn’t pass, but that was sort of like where the vibe was, >> you know, a year ago where they were just like no regulation, no regulation. But this year they’ve already just kind of changed and now they’re like in talks with the companies to set up some sort of like some sort of framework where they can like evaluate the models and they need like approval and so forth. >> But it seems like time is of the essence. >> Time is very much of the essence and that’s that’s why I’m overall so concerned is that like I think we are very much running out of time. We have like one two maybe three years before uh the AIs are smart enough that they can just like actually maybe take over um and um maybe four years something like that. And uh so the government needs to act fast. Um yeah, >> I like your view. I I I listen to some of these tech guys come in and give me their rosecoled glasses >> view of it and I go that sounds really beneficial to you. I I let him say I mean I I don’t I’m not an authority so I I’ll ask them questions and let him lay it out and I know the internet will respond because I I mean that’s part of the the whole drill is I let people talk and I I prod them and I try to get them to clarify you know I’ll oppose you know things that I think make don’t make rational sense but ultimately it’s sort of I just want to get out their perspective so people can debunk it and people can take it down and people and a lot of very intelligent people that have perspectives that are very much educated in the pros and cons of what they’re saying. >> Yeah, if I could that actually reminds me um with this whole hugging face hacking incident open had this uh this talk that they gave at a security conference about the incident and then I think they’ve released some blog post about it afterwards. But um they had you can go watch this talk on YouTube, the black hat talk. At the end of the talk, after having explained all this crazy stuff that the AI did, they have this section on like lessons learned. And I mean, you want to guess what the lessons are? >> Be more deceptive, hide yourself better. >> No, sorry, not lessons learned for OpenAI and for the world. Like Open AI is open AI’s talk where they’re like, here’s what we learned from this horrible, horrible incident. >> Well, basically they’re like, >> a lot of AIs are gonna start hacking a lot of stuff in the next few years. So people need to buy our AI services to protect themselves from all the AIs that are going to be hacking a lot of stuff in the next few years. Basically their lesson was you should buy our product to protect yourself from our product and the other you know um the go of these people like like they should have instead learned lessons like maybe we’re doing something bad and need to change the way they were doing things or like maybe our product is not trustworthy and should not be you know >> autonomously writing code on our data centers you know um but uh instead their lesson learned was y’all should buy more of our stuff and so like The the thing I’m saying about this is that like yes, the companies are trying to hype their product. They totally are, you know, but at the same time, the risks are real and the product is not trustworthy. You know, some people out there think that like this stuff was a setup and that like OpenAI like set up their AIs to go hack Hugging Face because it would like help them hype their product or whatever. And that I think is just a ridiculous view. Like no, obviously they didn’t want their AIS to go do this. They’re just after the fact trying to spin that in like the way that like most benefits them, you know. Hugging face, by the way, this is another AI company. Part of their deal is like open open weights AIS. Um, >> open weights >> like open source or like like basically AIS that instead of having to interact with their data center for you can just like download and have on your own computer. >> Um, and um, so they the way that they spun this incident, they didn’t sue OpenAI uh for being hacked. Instead, they asked for $100 million um from OpenAI and they had the blog post about it where they were like our lesson learned is that it’s really good to have open weights AIS because um you can’t trust the AIS from other companies to necessarily help you out in a crisis because part of what happened with them is that they’re dealing with this huge cyber attack from all these AI agents coming in and they tried to use Claude to help them like analyze what was going on, but Claude started refusing because Anthropic has trained Claude to like don’t do cyber stuff like refuse to participate in that. Uh and so Claude was like refusing to help them and so then they use their own local model that they had to like do some of that analysis. So anyhow their spin on it was you should use local models, you know. So like everyone always tries to spin things in the way that benefits them, but that doesn’t change the underlying reality that like these things are getting really smart really fast and we don’t know how to control them. >> I think that’s a good way to end it. Thank you. Thanks for being here, man. I really appreciate it. Um, you’re the the Paul Rivere of AI. >> I mean, you’re one of many, but uh I think it’s very important that someone who actually understands it gets this message out and more people need to hear it. >> Yeah. I mean, this is a on a personal note, like I have so many friends at these companies, like former colleagues and stuff, and um I guess my ask to them is that they quit and do more things like what I’m doing. Like what I’m saying is not that new or original. Like hundreds of people at these companies could have told you all the same things that I just said and warned you about all the same dangers and so forth, but they’re busy working at the companies because they’ve convinced themselves that their company is the best company and that like their company needs to win because, you know, otherwise the other company gets there first and they’re even worse, you know? Or maybe because they’ve convinced themselves that like, yeah, my company is kind of bad too, but like I just need to help them solve their alignment problems and like keep their AIS under control because oh my god, like if they lose control again, it could be all over. So like even though I don’t trust this company, I still need to work there and like just try to like do the actual security, you know? So for for one reason or another, all these people have convinced themselves that like that’s where they need to be. But I think that more of them should quit and like warn the world about what’s coming, basically. So >> all right. Well, thank you very much. Really appreciate it. >> Yeah. Good to >> talk to you. >> Thank you for having me on the show. My pleasure. >> Goodbye, everybody.

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY NIGHT. All day. >> So, there’s a new documentary that’s coming out on Elizabeth Holmes. And rarely have I watched a trailer for a documentary and known within the first 5 seconds I’m going to watch the documentary. Watch how crazy this [ __ ] looks. Just watch this. I can promise you that. >> I don’t have anything to deceive you on. Of course, I’m not deceiving you. I’m engaging with you as a human being. Why would I deceive you? >> There’s no there’s no reason for me to do that. >> Okay. All right. Okay, good shot. >> You’re being real right now. >> I’m always being real. Yo, what the [ __ ] was that? >> She’s the president of the Lindsy Clancy fan club. >> Oh my god. >> Yeah, I mean Oh, she is completely out of it, >> bro. >> Or like No, you could like see her like calculating the right moves to make in her face. It’s crazy. >> I don’t think she blinked. That was terrifying. >> THAT THE WIDE SHOT WHEN she’s rocking her kid. Joe, that was terrifying. >> Oh, no. The It’s the baby crying at the beginning when you realize there’s a baby in there. >> Her eyes are so big. >> I know. >> They’re so big. Like that’s You see all of the pupil. >> You see all of you know, you see the whole eyeball and the white all around it. That’s kind of weird. >> It does look like a snake almost just like eyeing down like what will it take to eat you? >> Yes, exactly. >> Something that came out of the Garden of Eden. >> Oh no. Good lord. Good lord. >> Darren, do you know who Elizabeth Holmes is? >> Who is this monster? >> Okay. >> Oh, thank you. So, there was a company called Therronos. And Theronos was a completely scam company made by this woman. And she dropped out of college to create this company that’s a blood testing company. And they can test your blood by just pricking your finger. Just get a little bit of drop of blood instead of getting a big draw like they have to do it. And so, they set them up at all these Walgreens. and it was going to be this huge thing and she used to wear a black turtleneck and talk like Steve Jobs. Not only that, she changed her voice. Okay, she changed her voice to sound more like a man. We’ll get to that later. So anyway, this company, I mean, who knows how many people used their product and it didn’t work at all. Like literally didn’t work at all. So all these people that got blood tests from it and thought, “Oh, good. No cancer. Oh, good. Don’t have to worry about my cholesterol. Oh, good. don’t have to worry about my It’s all fake. It was all fake. So, she was the richest self-made woman ever. She was worth like $9 billion at one point. And then someone from the company is like a whistleblower, I think it starts it off, and then they start investigating and then they realize like there’s nothing here. Like the whole company’s completely full of [ __ ] It never worked. It never worked at all. Like the the blood testing, they used to have to get actual blood on top of the little prick. The only way they could really test you is to do it the oldfashioned way and pretend that there was something wrong with the machine or something. We’re going to recalibrate this, but don’t worry, we got this. And so they would just get regular blood, like normal, like they take it out with an IV. The whole thing was a scam. And it took like a long time because no one wanted to believe because they had this narrative in their head. But this woman who looked like Steve Jobs, the other thing, girls that went to college with her was like, “Hey, that’s not her voice.” >> Oh my. cuz how she talks there in that video. Of course, I’m not trying to deceive you. Now, I want you to see how she talked when she was talking at these conferences. So, she would give these speeches about how powerful it is to be like a strong woman and all this crazy [ __ ] you know, like a woman in business and that kind of stuff. >> And she’s talking like she smoked a hundred cigarettes a day for a thousand years. She’s talking like a dude. She’s talking like a like someone’s in transition. They’re taking testosterone. Like listen to this. >> This is it. >> And a woman. >> Oh, >> no. No. This is some lady making fun of her voice. Go to her actual talking. Just go to her Elizabeth. There right there. Right there. There. >> I don’t know which one. >> Just go to any speech. Any speech where she’s giving >> just Elizabeth Holmes speech. >> The first video should real voice versus fake voice. >> Yeah, you could do that. But then >> Elizabeth Holmes, the convicted reinvented the traditional laboratory infrastructure. >> Well, it’s wonderful to be here. I started this company because >> those who knew right >> you got to hear it but but just go to one of her actual speeches so we don’t get any music or commentary over it because it’s crazy how fake it sounds. >> It’s impressive how much scammers go through to like like this is like real work that she put in. It’s like >> Yeah. Here it goes. TED talk. Here we go. She gave a TED talk. She gave a TED talk like >> the right to protect the health and well-being of every person >> of those we love is a basic human right. >> So she would say all the right things. She dressed the right way. >> That voice doctoring the voice is wild cuz now go back to the documentary please. >> Go back to the documentary that just go in the middle where she’s talking. Now play this. Listen to this. Right here. Right there. >> You’re being real right now. >> There’s no >> There’s no reason for me to do that. >> Oh, >> okay. >> It like makes her skin crawl. Bro, >> a completely different fake voice. She had a fake voice. >> It’s It’s so funny to me that in her TED talk, in her mind, she’s probably like, “What the [ __ ] This is still going like, how is this still at a certain point, you have to know that House of Cards is going to fall billion dollars?” >> I don’t think so, dude. I I think that world is so full of [ __ ] in so many ways. the world of like the tech startups and the the super woke lefties in tech, especially during that time period. I think it’s changed quite a bit now. People are way more pragmatic and it’s gotten like way away from a lot of that stuff cuz they realize it’s actually like really bad for business, >> you know. But back then, as long as you have like the right dynamics, oh my god, we got a strong woman with a turtleneck. Like we’re going to [ __ ] make a trillion dollars. >> A deep voice. >> Yeah, a deep voice. And she’s a wizard. like she’s just this wizard who dropped out of college who’s too smart for college and a female student that >> it’s the story she’s too smart for she’s too smart Bill Gates dropped out. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There’s a lot of stories like that. Like yes, you don’t need to go to college. Look, he’s the richest man in the world, >> right? >> It’s a really good backstory to create if you’re trying to scam people in the tech world, too. >> But the thing is, man, that world is full of [ __ ] in so many ways socially. Like the way they communicate is full of [ __ ] like they have these agreed upon ways of discussing things, referring to things that if you deviate from them at all, like even know even things that don’t make sense, like go to that thing that I sent you, Jamie. This is not um San Francisco, this is not the tech world, but this is Portland. So in Portland, >> this couple went to a sports bar that uh is for it’s like features mostly women’s sports. >> Okay. And so they, the guy went in with an XXXY chromosome shirt on and they kicked him out because the shirt was making people uncomfortable. Chromosomes make people uncomfortable. >> That’s insane, bro. >> Uncomfortable with those shirts. And so I’m asking y’all to leave. >> If I If I have to call authorities to get y’all removed, I will. But I don’t want to do. You don’t have to. >> No, no. What I I am just asking if you would please consider the depth of >> I didn’t realize it until I until someone’s >> I don’t look at people’s shirts whenever. >> There’s nothing wrong with your shirts. What is wrong with >> I have had complaints by customers already. I don’t understand what’s wrong with this shirt. There’s nothing wrong with these shirts. >> Look at those people. That that big lady that keeps looking over. You know that’s the [ __ ] complain. >> Yeah. >> You know she complain. She has the requisite shitty tattoo on her tricep. >> It is. It is also very funny to go into a woman’s sports bar with a chromosome shirt. Like cuz you know kicked out. Yeah. You know you knew that’s going to happen. >> But why why would it happen if it’s women’s sports? >> Like this is where this is where things have gotten so weird. Like if there’s anything that’s supposed to be pro-women sports, it’s the recognition that there’s a difference between men and women, which is what Title Nine was all about, which gave women like what what is what is title N specifically? It’s like equal funding. >> Yeah. If you you have to fund the women’s sports as much as you fund the men’s sports, right? Right. >> But that’s a very big distinction that there’s women x and there’s men x y. Like everybody knows this, >> but you you can’t say that anymore. >> Your logical man brain. >> What’s crazy is that a business a business is like you’ve got to get out. You’re making too much sense. >> Yeah. >> You’re [ __ ] with our illusion. >> You’re literally You’re literally stating a fact. There’s nothing He’s not He’s not even saying anything about the sport. He’s just saying XXY chromosomes. There’s no There’s no fact. Yeah. Yeah. >> Just XXY is crazy offensive to them. >> Oh, you have to leave. facts are believe. >> I think I think real life is offensive. I think the illusion, like you said, Joe, I think that’s the world. >> But that illusion is what allows someone like Elizabeth Holmes to sniff through the cracks, to slip through the cracks. That’s what it is. It’s like you’re already in a [ __ ] world. >> Well, yeah. I You know what I mean? >> No, I understand what you’re saying. You’re already living in that [ __ ] world and you buy what this woman’s [ __ ] selling, which is clearly [ __ ] >> There’s something about [ __ ] worlds. It’s like you’re in a cult. It really is the same thing. Like, why does a cult leader why why does a cult leader get to [ __ ] everyone’s wife? >> Why why do we have to give them all the money? I don’t know. The rules are the rules, man. It’s like people just go along with [ __ ] weird rules, >> right? And and I’ll put it on this like it is a scammer is kind of always looking for a way to find how to make the rules work for him or her. Oh, yeah. >> So, it’s like cuz we were literally just talking about this earlier. You heard about this Dejon Love guy? >> Oh, man. No, >> the 49ers, the fake 49ers receiver. Oh, I did see something. >> That is hilarious. >> What did he do? >> Yeah. So, he would he would go on social media. Oh, not social media, on these dating apps and pretend to be a 49ers guy, >> but he would have his helmet with him in his car. So, he’d have he’d be driving in a car and you’d see his 49ers helmet. >> There’s a great video, Jamie, can you pull them up? Of him like running routes on the beach. It’s incredible >> with his 49ers helmet. So, he has all these things to scam women and he got 1.3 million >> out of these women. >> Wa for dating app. They don’t have Google. >> No, but here’s Okay. Here here’s the thing. Here’s the thing, right? He got really he made enough fake profile. He’s just out here running routes on the beach. >> Him outside the stadium. That’s him outside. >> He got girls to give him money. >> Yeah. >> Why’ they give him money? >> So the way he would work is that he would be like, “Hey, I have I have all these investments. So I have a house here, a thing here, another thing here. Give your money to me and I’ll invest it for you and it’ll come back more for you.” Right? And he got what what he got really good at was he put enough fake social media pages up online that when you Googled him, the initial Google AI would say Dejon Love is a wide receiver for the 49ers. And so, >> oh my god. >> And I I I think of myself how many times I often just take the first Google thing. So, a lot of these women were just like, “Yeah, why would Google lie to me about this?” >> He’s got his helmet. I’m looking at a video. He’s got his helmet. >> I’m going to get a helmet. >> That’s crazy. He has a helmet. A few websites. >> Yeah. Yeah, that’s awesome. >> And girls are like, “Take my money.” >> Yeah. He had a LinkedIn profile as a wide receiver. >> Some dudes are really good at smooth talking. Have you ever had a guy try to uh get you in a scam? >> I guess. >> Yeah, I think so. >> I had a guy who was a boxing coach who tried to get me in a an actual pyramid scheme. Like he was explaining to me and as he was explaining to me, I go, “That’s a pyramid scheme.” He was explaining, “Well, when what happens is the more people you get to join up to this, they put in money, the more money you get out.” >> And I was like, “Dude, do you know what that is? Do you understand what that is?” I go, “You’re you’re you’re describing a scam.” Like, you’re trying to get me to give you money and you’re describing a scam. >> It’s always the same scam. It’s always the same. People fall for it. You got to go get more money from other people. It’s crazy. >> It’s like tell They always do the same thing. Telling you, “My friend, he bought a new car. It’s a [ __ ] beautiful new car, you know? I mean, he put in like 20 grand and he got $85,000 within a year doing nothing. You don’t have to do nothing. And I go, “Do you understand how crazy this offer is? Like, you’re actually telling me I should join a pyramid scheme? Like, do you know what a pyramid scheme is?” I had to explain to him a pyramid scheme. I go, “This is like an old scam.” Like, you’re tell you’re telling me about an old scam and you think I should join this old scam? Are you getting money out? Like, if you put money in, like, how does this work? As long as you get out in time, you can get some money out of that, >> right? Or you start the thing. >> Well, you Yeah. Or you start the thing. Or you get get enough suckers, which is what he was trying to do. Get enough suckers. And what better place than at a place where dudes get hit in the head all day. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> He was catching you after sparring, too. After sparring, you walk out of there. I was like, that was when I like first moved to LA in like 94. This guy was like he I mean, he had me in the parking lot. I got to tell you about this offer. This is amazing. And like he’s laying it all out to me. I was like, “Oh, I guess I got to go to a new gym.” >> Can’t [ __ ] believe this [ __ ] >> Those guys always talk fast. It’s always the same. It’s like fast at all. That’s so like really humiliating about it. Like, how dare you think that this would work on me? Do you think I’m that [ __ ] stupid? This is really embarrassing. >> Well, you just you just got to suck sucker in the right person. There is >> I know, but I was like couldn’t believe that he thought I was that dumb. like as we’re like when I started laying out what a cons what a pyramid scheme is and how they work and how often you know they’re you know like this doesn’t work like you’re going to either you’re going to go to jail or something’s going to happen here. >> How the [ __ ] is the Elizabeth Holmes lady out of jail? >> I think she’s in now. I think this was all before she went away. >> Okay, I’m like this >> that documentary she’s like she has like something like 34 days before she’s going to jail and she let Nathan Fielder have like full access. >> Why? Well, I would be like, “Bro, why are you so close to me? This is crazy. You and I can have a conversation a little bit further away than this. You don’t have to like literally be like leaning in like you’re telling me a secret.” >> What Nathan Feler is a master of though is getting people going to that place where like, “Oh, I think that’s their true them.” >> Yeah. >> He’s just not saying no to you. He has no limits. So, he let you >> did something very wise right there, which is when someone says something, you say nothing back. >> Mhm. >> You give them nothing. And cuz they’re their whole game is ping pong, right? And if you don’t and then they’re just HOLDING THE PADDLE. HI. They just look they look [ __ ] crazy. You get to see who they really are. You could pretend who you you’re different. Oh yeah. I would never deceive anyone. Oh yeah. Why would I blind? I’m going to jail anyway. I’ll tell you what happened. >> Cuz that’s what she wanted. She wanted him to say something back so she could so she could >> So she just stood there. So just sit there with the paddle, looking stupid as [ __ ] >> Yeah, there is something. There’s this guy, you know, this guy named Vtor Victor Lustig. He was a guy who is a prolific scammer sold the Eiffel Tower. Almost almost sold it twice, but he wrote the he wrote the ten commandments of scamming and one of them is like you have to get you say nothing. You just listen and you just get them talking. >> So the fact that she’s not getting anything means like you can see the sort of wall start to crumble around her being like well [ __ ] you got to this is how this works for me. Look, there’s no way >> she wasn’t scamming people. Like, there’s a bunch of people in the organization that became whistleblowers. >> Uh, her ex-boyfriend went away as well. Like, he got busted. They probably ratted on each other. I don’t know what happened. What happened to her and her ex-boyfriend? I probably shouldn’t say that. It’s probably legally get me in a lot of trouble. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Did her and her ex-boyfriend, did they testify against each other? How’d that work? The dude had a Lamborghini. He was balling. Yeah, they were balling. 9 billion. 9 bill, son. private jets. Oh, they were living. >> It It might have on their end, it might be just worth it to experience that level of wealth even for a second. >> No, no, no, no. She She’s gone away for 10 years. She’s doing 10 years in the pokey. And even when she gets out, her life is in danger. She scammed like really big people out of hundreds of millions of dollars. >> That’s a good point. >> Like like venture capitalists and people who can do something about it. >> People who would do something about it, too. People who know people who will do something about it. like you stole money from these people and not just a little, >> you know, like one of the one of the people gave her $150 million. >> Yeah. >> Sunny Balwani, former software uh entrepreneur who met Holmes in 2002 when Holmes was 18. He was >> was roughly 19 years older. He later became an informal adviser and investor in Thoros and then formerly joined the company in 2009 as his president and chief operating officer. He left in 2016 around the end of their relationship. He got more time in jail, >> did he? Uh, yep. Looks like it. 12 years. 11 months. Yeah, she got 11 years. Three months. I wonder why it says 12. Well, look, they were both guilty. Okay. >> Holmes alleged that Balwani psychologically, physically, and sexually abused her. Of course. Oh, yeah. >> During her relationship, Balwani denied these allegations through his legal team. Those allegations were part of Hol’s defense context, not a finding that Balwani was criminally convicted of abuse. So they were just trying to blame his behavior on her scamming people out of billions of dollars. >> Yeah, he got he’s getting Patrick Clans right now. That’s >> after collapse. Holmes began a relationship with their uh with hotel heir Billy Evans. They became engaged, have two children. Imagine like having children with a lady you know is going to the pokey for 10 years. She gonna have to take care of these kids or mommy’s in a cage right now, but when she gets out, she’s going to be the best mommy. >> Yeah, she’s >> You’re going to be in middle school. >> What? >> The wait is over. Football is here and so is DraftKings. The DraftKings sports app is now live in all 50 states. That means from Texas to California to Florida, every fan is in on the excitement. And this September, DraftKings is giving customers the opportunity to get boosted every football game day. That’s right. Every game day, all month long, DraftKings customers can get a football profit boost. One app, every sport, all 50 states. New DraftKings customers. Sign up with code Rogan. Spend just five bucks and get 200 in total rewards within 21 days. Includes all markets. That’s code Rogan in partnership with DraftKings. The crown is yours. >> Gambling problem? Call 1800 gambler 1800 my reset. Connecticut? Call 888789777 or visit ccpg.org. org on behalf of Bootill Casino in Kansas. Bet tax pass through may apply in Illinois. 21 and over. Void in Canada. Bet with DraftKings Sportsbook to get bonus bets that expire in 7 days or trade with DraftKings Predictions to get predictions dollars that expire in one year. Event contract trading involves risk of loss. Predictions offer Void in New York. Non-withdrawable rewards issued as $50. Click to claims every 7 days for 21 days. Terms at dkg.co/offer. Limited time offer. Nationwide based on sportsbook predictions and free-to-play sports contest. Availability varies by state. >> You’re also putting kids in this. You know she’s a liar. Just to know someone’s like this is a some people don’t know. >> Prolific. >> Some people don’t know. They don’t know. >> How can you feel now? But like now, how can you feel like your children are safe around her? Even >> that’s what I would be worried about. >> I think that’s a very different thing. Someone who’s a scammer versus someone who’s a killer or someone who’s an abuser. >> That look in her eyes, Joe, scared the [ __ ] out of me. >> Yeah, it’s not good. And there’s the other thing that the elephant in the room is what kind of medication is she on? >> Federal prison camp. Brian in Texas and Galain Maxwell. Oh, they’re both in the same place. Yeah, her. I knew that. Um, let’s find out what kind of medication Elizabeth Holmes was on. >> Yeah. See, she was on any of the fun stuff. >> Any of the fun stuff that makes you happy and dance through a [ __ ] field of wheat. >> Run their hands through a field of wheat like they’re [ __ ] gladiator. Like they’re Maximus and Gladiator. >> Remember that scene? >> Yeah. Remember that scene? >> His family also got murdered. So, yeah. God damn. That’s They’re always in those movie dream sequences. They’re always in some kind of field. It makes you think that love like fields are involved in love way more than they are. >> It says, “I’m not aware of any reliable public record listing Elizabeth Holmes’s personal medications. It would be inappropriate.” Oh, perplexity. You’re too ethical. >> Speculate on someone’s private health treatment. Too late. We already have. >> Let’s look how I know a lot of people that are on those [ __ ] things, man. I mean, I think a lot of people that go to a shrink and they go, I yes, I’m depressed. I’m not feeling good. It’s if they’re inclined to prescribe, you’re inclined to take. It’s a doctor. They know what they’re doing. Next thing you know, you’re kooky. >> Yeah. And I think we’ve been so conditioned to think that a pill can make you happy that people are like, “Yeah, let’s let me get on it.” And for some people, man, it’s doing this weird thing where it doesn’t just kill their sexual feeling. Like they no longer or orgasm, but they don’t have any sexual desire anymore, like ever. It like kills it. >> There’s like a term for this SSRI problem with sex that some people get. Like this lady was given a speech where she was describing what happened to her when she was young, you know, like she I think she was in her 20s when she started taking and it’s just totally numb. like there’s nothing going on, no orgasms, no feeling, no desire. >> Do you think that’s an accidental side effect or an intentional side effect? >> No, it’s an accidental side effect. It doesn’t happen to everybody. Okay. Why? You think they’re trying to numb us? My brain went, “Man, they’re trying to neuter us. Are they trying to neuter us? What are they trying to do?” >> Well, we’ve we’ve uh, you know, experimented so much with stuff like this through our military and our government to begin with. >> Well, here’s the thing. This is one thing that is possible. If you were going to do something like that, the the way you would if you wanted people to be much more invested in like cultural and political issues, you eliminate any possibility of a sex life, >> no sex life. So now all of their identity is all involved in whatever they’re doing, whether it’s being a a right-wing patriot lady or whether it’s being a left-wing whatever. Like, you’re going to go all in on that. You’re not going to have children. You don’t have sex. You’re not even interested in it. So, what are you interested in? You have to have a team. You have to have a thing. Do you watch college football? Like, what do you watch? Yeah. No. You know, you watch, you get into politics and you start telling people what to do. Who out of the people that we know are the most scolding of all political people. It’s always people with no kids that are in their 50s, right? And a lot of it, a lot of it is women. A lot of it no kids. Women in their 50s become not just like have opinions about politics, not just have opinions and positions that they take, but scolding. Yes. >> Like the world is their children. >> Yeah. I >> You missed out. You missed out on having a child >> and now the world is your child and you know what’s best for them. >> You know what’s best for the whole world. >> Oh my god. >> I think that’s the coolest part about Derek. Sometimes I like I just have to explain to him something what’s going on cuz he’s like just he has a little baby >> and he’s like that’s his whole life. >> But it’s nice. >> Yeah. >> But I but that’s scary what you just said of like there’s women who don’t have kids. It’s like oh the world it’s like open. >> That’s not But by the way be really clear. It is not all women who don’t have kids. There’s a lot of women who don’t have kids that are awesome and they don’t need to have kids. Like you could do whatever you want in this life. It’s one of the more more beautiful things about being a person in America. You have the complete freedom to live your life as you choose. You don’t have to have children. But there is something about the people that didn’t have children that are scolding. Yes. >> That’s weird because they weren’t doing that when they were in their 20s. There’s something about when they get past the reproductive age that they get like very invested in politics. It’s like you don’t even have a world to protect. You don’t have children. So you don’t have a world to make better for the children. And you got maybe 20 years left, right? 20 years ago was 2006. That [ __ ] was real recent. So you got 20 years left. You’ll be 77 78 years old and you’ll probably be basically dead unless you do something radical to take care of your health. Right. >> Right. >> So why are you so invested in all the other people’s problems of the world when your life is a [ __ ] mess? Because you’ve infantilized the world. >> You’ve turned the culture into your children and you’re that’s why they’re scolding. That’s the scolding aspect that you get particularly from people that don’t have and men too. from men that don’t have children, they get older, they get a there’s a scolding political aspect of it. They never had children. >> Instead of just like having opinions on things and being able to debate your opinions of why you think that way, there’s a scolding of people who disagree. >> Why don’t you think like I think? >> Yes. It’s also it’s an you’re you’re intimidating people trying to get them to be afraid of disagreeing with you. There’s part of that, too. That’s part of the the very aggressive like insults about people that disagree with you. Part of what you’re doing is you’re trying to force people to self-censor. You’re forcing people to go along with your perspective instead of just like effectively arguing your perspective. What you’re doing is you’re attacking the people who don’t agree with your perspective, which I mean it’s sometimes it’s great because it’s funny, you know, if you could do it funny, if you’re really good at it, if it’s like genuinely funny. But there’s a weird [ __ ] meanheartedness to it where you other people that disagree with you instead of like saying things in a way that would perhaps convince them to listen to you a little bit. Like maybe you have a point. Maybe they have a point though. >> Yeah. There’s there’s nothing that’s going to make people turn off more than like calling them a Nazi, which has been a big thing. It’s like if they disagree with me, they’re a Nazi, which ironically is a pretty Nazi ideology in in of itself. >> It is. >> Yeah. Ironically, that’s how they thought. BUT I DON’T LIKE THIS. >> That’s so true. >> If you don’t like if you’re a bad person. If you disagree, you’re a bad person. You’re right. The scolding like you don’t get to just disagree with anyone. >> Yeah. And they’re also not engaging with people. >> No, it’s not a conversation. >> It’s not It’s not a conversation. And if they did have a conversation on there’s like there’s other perspectives, man. There’s other perspectives. And this perspective that one side is good and one side is bad in this country is crazy. It’s so dumb. It’s such a bad way to approach the reality of our current situation. Because the reality of our current situation is complicated and it has been definitely influenced by government organizations and poisoned in a way where they benefit from us being at each other’s throats. >> So if you really like government overreach, keep doing that [ __ ] If you really want people that are, you know, in some [ __ ] Pentagon building deciding, you know, what what goes on in in our in our society. Keep behaving that way. You’re giving these people. That’s what the like if if you were the government, >> it’s a [ __ ] common phrase. Divide and conquer. Divide and conquer is the most common strategy because if you can get the people fighting with each other, then you just [ __ ] storm in and take over. >> You don’t even have to storm them in. They’ll let you take they’ll just give you pieces. >> Well, that’s what’s happening now. >> Yeah. In terms of like, oh, this will [ __ ] over the other side. So, just give the government more and more control. >> They’re kicking people out of bars for X XY shirts. We’re This is >> It’s getting crazy. >> It’s crazy. We’re fighting over if a lady killed her kids and there’s a fight over it, >> bro. There’s >> So, it’s like, what’s going on? >> I want to know how those women knew to wear pink. How did they decide? How did they get together? How much US aid money was involved? Like, >> talk about divide and conquer. Like, that’s a great divide and conquer. organized hundreds of women who are out of their [ __ ] minds to wear pink shirts and stand outside of a courthouse where a woman who one at a time strangled her kids with an exercise cable. >> They brought their kids. There were women out there holding their kids up >> like a sack. >> Michael Jackson. Yeah. >> This is a scup. >> This is a scup. >> It’s a scup. >> If it’s not a scup, I’m disappointed in our government. It’s got to be a scop. >> It has to be a scop. >> That Lindsy Clancy thing has to be a scop. And by scop, understand this. It doesn’t mean that those people involved all know it’s [ __ ] It means that you have targeted some of the dumbest, craziest [ __ ] alive and you have uh organized them in some way and got them to that point. Cuz the idea that they did it all by themselves without anybody from the outside saying, you know, would be great. >> Yeah. You know who really did it? Yeah, you’re right. somebody did organize that. >> And it’s even more terrifying to me if that’s not true. >> If it’s if it’s an actual organic, that means the government >> grassroots organization. >> Well, they they can step back cuz we’re doing the work for them. >> Like we’re so out of our [ __ ] minds that we’re doing the work for them. >> Well, yeah. And and we’ve started doing that for sure cuz now I’ve seen like% women who I know be like come out of super proclansancy and it’s like >> that’s what scared me is that there cuz you think they’re not real women, Joe. And there’s women in my life where I’m like, whoa, those women have children. Those women have children. That’s so crazy. >> It’s scary. >> That’s so scary. >> I I also want to see a ven diagram of all these white ladies who would like who like spent the last like since co or whatever preaching about white privilege and then how many of them are still for Lindsay Clansancy? Cuz to me, I look at that, it’s like, well, this is the most white privileged thing I’ve ever seen in my [ __ ] life, >> right? >> She murdered three of her kids and you’re like, she should a lot of people think she should just get away with it. The crazy thing is, could you imagine any man standing outside of the courtroom of a man who strangled his three sons >> or his three daughters or whatever? Just can you imagine >> men would want to kill that >> already? I’m like, that man’s got to go. Especially you, you have a child now. You understand the feeling? >> That man cannot be a part of societ. >> Jim Brewer said this to me once and I’ll never forget it. He goes, once I had kids, I really understood murder. I was like, “Ooh.” >> You know, as a person who also has kids, I’m like, “Right.” >> Yeah. >> I didn’t know how rage. >> One night in our apartment, somebody yelled. Our baby was like 3:00 a.m. And I was talking, you know, we got a balcony. So, the baby just crying on the balcony. I was going outside trying to do anything at this point just to calm her down. And I didn’t know where it came from, but a guy was like, “Shut that [ __ ] baby up.” >> Oh my god. >> I didn’t know I could get that mad. >> Oh my god. >> I didn’t know. And I was ready to kill a guy. I’m ready. I was ready to go door to door to find a guy to be like, “Bro, you out of your [ __ ] mind.” Like, so I get what you’re saying and I didn’t and I told my wife, you got to get the baby out of my hands as a wife cuz I’m I’m about to go kill it. I don’t know what’s going on. People who don’t have babies have such a different feeling than when when babies are crying. Like if I would be on a plane and a baby would be crying when I was young, I’d be like, “Oh no, I’m never going to sleep. This sucks. [ __ ] baby. Shut that baby up.” I wouldn’t obviously say it, but you know, I’d be like, “God, this baby’s annoying.” Now, if I’m on a plane and a baby’s crying, I’m like, “What’s up, sweetie? What happened?” >> It’s okay. I’m saying, “Do your nose hurt? Do your ears hurt?” Cuz like their ears get stopped up. >> Yeah. Well, yeah, cuz you Well, you guys have also been the kid guy with the baby on the plane. And you truly understand what that’s like. It’s not like you want the baby to cry. >> No. >> No. >> So, you’re right. It’s such a different feeling. But man, you’re I never experienced that was the first time I experienced like real I was like, “Oh, wow.” I’m like, “This is rage. I’ve never felt I’m I’m a pretty calm guy. I’m pretty chill. But that was like, oh, this is actual RA. I’m like I’m I feel out of control angry right now. >> Yeah. You know, it’s rough. >> I get it. It’s like that’s one of the things that’s where it’s really good for people to have children because you have children then you have a level of empathy that’s just different. >> You have a level of feeling. It’s just different. It just changes you as a person. Like you’re a different person after you have a kid. If you’re a good person, if you’re paying attention, if you’re nice, >> if you’re kind, if you, you know, you understand love, you like you’re like, “God, I can’t believe I love someone so much.” >> Yeah. >> It’s like, it’s a different feeling. It’s a [ __ ] completely different feeling. And it changes your, you know, for lack of a better term, changes your heart. It changes like who you are as a person. >> Yes. How soft. >> Yeah. >> I realize I could be >> or how hard you could be if like some [ __ ] went down. Someone was trying to hurt your little kid. >> Yeah. >> It’s It’s a weird feeling, man. It’s like you have a mama bear feeling. and women get it where they could pick cars up off of [ __ ] kids. That’s why this Lindsy Clancy thing is so disturbing is because I just don’t understand what anybody I’ve tried so hard to look at it from a perspective of someone defending her and I don’t get it like what I what is the key argument that she was asking for help. I heard that one. >> Yep. >> And I heard that she was on a bunch of different medications. But then I also heard that refuted. Did I send you that text? Did I send you a tweet about someone on uh Twitter who is like explaining how many misconceptions there are about how many medications there are and then they went over all the Google searches that she made about how to kill people. >> Mhm. >> The Google searches and Yeah. >> And then the how much time it took the sending the husband out. That’s where all those things are like that’s just so calcul it’s not a calculated and premeditated. This isn’t so crazy. I on your phone like online like you’re there is so much like don’t have kids anti-kids messaging that’s coming your way constantly and it’s like as someone I’m I’m single and someone who’s in the apps so many of like their like never want children don’t want kids trying to live that day >> why are you in the apps you you must be meeting the ladies after shows you’re a funny dude man >> you’re funny you know what’s so funny I don’t like after after >> you don’t like meeting fans >> no I don’t like meeting fans >> meeting fans >> yeah after After Mothership, too, I’m hanging up. I’m hanging with the boys. Usually, it’s like if I’m meeting girls after shows, it’s usually on the road. >> It’s not so much at Mothership. >> The mothership is built for comedians. It’s not You have to go out of your way to go hit on women. It ain’t like the comedy store where you just you step out and it’s just women. It’s just women. >> There’s no patio. There’s no patio area, >> which is probably really good for our lawsuits. >> I think this is a good thing >> in this day and age. But when I worked at the store at most of the numbers I’d get would be from the patio. >> You know, we almost put a bar on the roof. Oh, that would have been Yeah, that would have been crazy. >> We were going to build out the roof and we’re gonna like we had the this whole setup, but I had a vision of some drunk open micer going over the top of the wall cuz the wall was only like 4 ft high. And I was like, some dumb [ __ ] is going to try to sit up there >> and they’re going to [ __ ] splatter their brains right in. Nope. And I was like immediately, uh-uh, we’re not doing this. It just wasn’t set. It just like wasn’t set up right. Like if we wanted to do it, I would want like a [ __ ] suicide net around the outside of it. Like some of these employees I’ve been in mities and see these people [ __ ] plastered. I’m like, “Okay, thank God for [ __ ] Ubers cuz these guys are [ __ ] hammered.” And I’ve sometimes I forget, you know, but like the early days of the comedy store, if there was a rooftop bar, we’d have so many dead people. Everybody, so many people were like pissed drunk where they couldn’t stand >> just wasted off like a terrible set too. He made some wast mushrooms in me and now I’m on the roof. >> But there was a guy who jumped off the roof next door right during the strike. >> The big that was the big Lubetkin. That’s the big story. >> Apparently he wasn’t even very good. >> He wasn’t apparently his diary was crazy. It was all about how he looked. He he was asking his parents for money so he could be famous comedian. And I remember this in the thing. It was all about like so I can get my teeth done and my face changed and a plastic surgery on my chin and it was like nothing about comedy and it was like oh so this guy was a crazy person. This had nothing to do with comedy. >> Yeah, I know a guy went a little nutty that way >> and got a bunch of you got pec implants. He got a bunch of stuff done. It’s like >> all all like the f all the fillers and stuff age super poorly too. >> Well, this was a long time ago but this guy was like this was in the sitcom era and this guy was obsessed with getting a sitcom. Good comic, too. I don’t want to say his name. You know, he’s not with us anymore. But it was it was weird watching him like weird stuff like pec implants are crazy. >> Yeah, man. If you’re a man, what the do push-ups, brother. >> Yeah. >> That’s natural pec implant. >> That’s natural pec implant. >> Weird. So, I had to get plastic shoved into your your breasts, >> your tits, like a [ __ ] lady. >> Nuts. Nuts. And it just makes them poke out a little more. >> Well, yeah. It’s surgery, son. It is ironic to say with me choosing to have this face, but like people do put like way too much. Like it’ll be interesting watching an artist put like way too much on their looks and it’s like well the art first looks later. >> Like the look does matter in some way, but >> the era though, man. You have to understand that era was the motivations were very different. There was two giant motivations. There was get a late night talk show, hopefully the Tonight Show cuz then you’re the king >> because there can only be one king. It was Johnny Carson and then it was whoever took Johnny Carson’s place. And then it was Letterman was like the cool guy. He was like the cool late night guy. He was like if you were like smarter, you went to college, you watch Letterman. And if you like really appreciated comedy, you watch Letterman cuz he got like some of the best comics on. He had Kenisonson on when Kenisonson debuted a famous one. >> But then there was a sitcom and the sitcom was the giant carrot because a sitcom could make you Jerry Seinfeld rich. Jerry Seinfeld, I don’t know what he’s worth. I don’t want to say what he’s worth. He’s probably worth close to a billion dollars. like you got that syndication money, you know, like Kevin James, you get that syndication money, that’s a different animal, man. That’s you own the show and you get that syndication money, that’s a different animal. It’s only for the people that own the show. Like I don’t I never got that kind of money from news radio. Uh but if you owned it, you got Boou Diero cuz they played that [ __ ] on all these different local channels all across the country. So that [ __ ] was on at 5:00 in Milwaukee and 7:00 in San Francisco and 8:00 in Chicago. It was everywhere. So Seinfeld was just raking it in. So everybody had that dream. That was the big dream. And that dream, you know, well, you know, he’s not the best looking guy. Like [ __ ] you go home, you’re like, what do I got to do? I’m going to get a hairpiece. I’m going to get my eyes done. I’m going to get my [ __ ] I’m going to get this. I’m going to get contacts. I’ll get Lasic. I’ll get my teeth. I’ll get my [ __ ] this. >> Yeah, cuz you hear way less of that nowadays. But that seems like if you were trying to be on TV, >> it would be your whole thing. I got to get my teeth. I got to get my my nose. >> That’s why I got hair transplants. I was panicking. I was panicking cuz I was on a sitcom. My hair’s falling out. I’m like, “Oh no.” And I was using Minoxidal. Minoxidal was keeping it. But it was like it was like I was on the path. Like 100% I was on the path to being a baldy. I knew it. I knew it. I was like, “Fuck, I just started to make some money.” >> How old were you? >> 27. >> Oh, that’s Yeah, I was 19. You just have to sort of accept it at 19. >> Yours was falling out at 19. >> I was falling out at 19. I was I was getting hairline jokes in college. Well, mine was falling out earlier, but like by that age, it was like becoming a problem. >> Like when I was like 27, 28, I was like, “Ooh, this is going to be a problem.” >> Yeah. >> But it’s like that carrot was dangled over people’s heads. Wasn’t the art back then. It’s such a different world now with Netflix. With Netflix and YouTube, it’s such a different world. >> And Instagram, it’s Yeah. It’s a clip game now. That’s what the game has become. >> Mhm. Yeah. But it’s still like what’s most important is what you said like the quality of the stuff that you do. And sometimes the quantity can overwhelm the quality where it like waters it down. Like you put out so many clips so many like people maybe don’t want to see you now. Like like what you’re doing should be whatever you put out should be groovy. It be should be something you really dig, you know? It’s like you got to play this pros and cons game. There’s pros of having yourself out there constantly all the time, but it’s also like you look a little needy. Like, bro, you post eight clips in a day. That’s kind of crazy. >> And they’re all trying to catch the algorithm. You’re not even posting something where you’re like, oh, you you made some cool thing that you really like and you think, like you said, this is cool. Not a lot of it’s not that. A lot of it’s like, what can I get into this algorithm that will get weird when people delete a post and then repost it again like a week later? >> Oh, yeah. Well, there’s all these sort of games you can do. >> It’s a game. It’s a game now. It’s a game now, Joe. It used to be it used to be like when Instagram first came out, the people who saw followed you got to see your stuff. But now you post something, it doesn’t get any likes, you could be pretty confident that no one saw it and you can just keep going until maybe it hits. >> So weird. >> That’s cuz that’s the game. And it’s like the more you’re in the algorithm, the more you’re sort of selling tickets. If if you’re one of these sort of new comics coming up. >> Yeah. I mean, I I guess that’s just I’m taking it from my perspective. If you’re just looking in terms of marketing yourself, it’s probably a good strategy. But I think ultimately the one thing that’s the most important is just concentrate on your [ __ ] Just do whatever whatever it is you’re trying to do. Whether it’s podcasting or whether it’s standup or whatever it is, just concentrate on making that really good. >> Yeah. >> Do your best. That’s it. And all the other stuff it’s like you don’t have to think about all the other stuff anymore. Where it used to be the other stuff like getting someone to cast you on a sitcom was the number one thing that you were thinking of. That’s why all these guys got their teeth done and got their [ __ ] >> pec implants and all that crazy [ __ ] >> Yeah, there is crazy. >> But I like that this world cuz it’s like man like Stavos exists and Matt Refe exists. Like I like that. >> I know people hate on Matt Right, but he’s a nice guy and he doesn’t do anything bad to anybody. It’s like hating on Taylor Swift. Like why why would you hate on her? Obviously people love her. >> Well people also you work that hard to be Taylor Swift. You like you work that hard to be Matt Right. Yeah, that’s cuz you can say, “Oh, you want, oh, it’s because of how he looks.” Bro, it’s hard to look like that. Not to say that, first off, his comedy is incredible. But I don’t like that people go, “Oh, it’s just because of how he looks.” It’s like, “Hey, >> you look like that. This [ __ ] works out every day. This [ __ ] you don’t just look like that.” >> There’s that. >> That’s a choice. Also, I respect that. >> He’s really good at crowd work. He’s incredible. He’s a great comic, too. >> Two things are happening. >> And he’s a super nice guy. >> He’s the man. Yeah. If you hang out with him, you’re very nice guy. He’s He’s always been a nice guy. Like, I met him when he was 20. >> He’s always been a sweetheart. Well, there is like for whatever reason people just like hate on crowdware comics. And I’m not I’m not a crowd guy at all. >> Yeah. The elephant in the rooms. They hate on a beautiful handsome man. >> That’s what’s going on. >> Who does workout videos with his shirt off homeboy homeboy shredded and he’s beautiful. >> He looks like a Marvel character >> and he’s just he’s swatting [ __ ] off. Swat swat. Get away. He’s so hot. >> That’s what they’re hating on. But so what? So what? That’s not his fault. Like what do you care? Like it’s so dumb. These these [ __ ] inter comedian >> also minimizers are so stupid. Unless it’s something significant like someone’s stealing your material. Yeah. >> Or you know or something else. >> But it’s never that anymore, Joe. Now it’s just everybody’s just hating on anybody. It’s never that. It’s never anything real like you said. >> And it’s like on how sometimes how they do comedy like oh you’re a crowd guy. It’s like who cares? You can do this something. You can have puppets. >> Are you making people laugh? That’s all that really matters. Are people entertained by you? Then get >> Dude, >> Chuck Russell’s puppet’s like the funniest thing of all time. Will >> Hobo is the greatest bit I’ve ever seen. >> There’s no rules to this. But it is weird. Everyone does that in that where it’s like I don’t like the way this guy does comedy or the way she does comedy. >> I used to feel this way about Carrot Top. Like everybody used to attack Carrot Top and I was always like, I don’t understand it. Like why are you why people are laughing? It’s a different kind of comedy, but it’s clever. Yeah, it’s funny. Like it’s silly funny comedy. I don’t get it. Like why are you mad? like this idea that it’s easy to do. Okay. Is it? Have you done it? Have you done it? I don’t understand what’s going on here. And he was a [ __ ] super sensitive guy, man. And I remember when I had him on the podcast, like we talked about it and he was like, “Dude, that helped me so much.” He goes, “I was just like I always thought I was like every comic hated me and I was outcast, but like you having me on and being nice to me, it was like so cool.” And I was like, “I don’t understand why anybody wouldn’t be nice to you.” Like what is the problem? >> What is the problem? We are we are the comedians are a snobby group of people and then they sort of let it take over sometimes like you got to do it the right way. >> Well, the internet’s kind of ramped it up like to cuz now you can make clips about each other and now >> it’s always people doing better than you. >> Yeah. No one [ __ ] on anybody doing worse than them. >> Well, you you got to swing up to get into the algorithm. >> But it’s I got to swing at Shane. I got to swing at Tony. >> It’s such a trap and it’s so bad for you. It’s bad for you as a person. Like I’ve said this many times, but the thing that like went down with me and Mensia, even though I think it was important like to recognize that someone was actually just like profiting off of other people’s hard work, I wouldn’t do it again cuz like the negativity was [ __ ] awful. It was terrible. Like from his fans, from people, even people attacking him was like all of it was so gross. It’s so overwhelming that it’s just like that’s not a way to live your life. like living your life attacking people and going after things like that. It’s just not a way to live your life. >> Also, it always if you’re the guy who like is constantly attacking people, it’ll always turn back on you. Always. Always. It’s like I tell them all the time it’s like uh French Revolution Robes Pierre. You become the guy leading the beheadings. People be like, “We should probably behead this guy.” >> And the chances are you’re a piece of [ __ ] >> Well, you got to be [ __ ] up if you’re constantly going after people and looking for excuses. And again, it’s it’s that it’s that that expression that I love that criticism is the tragic result of unmet needs. >> Such a great [ __ ] it’s not always accurate. Obviously, some legit like the Elizabeth Holmes thing that was pretty legitimate, you know, [ __ ] con people out of billions of dollars, >> you know, Jeffrey Epstein. Yeah, you could probably criticize that guy. There’s a lot of criticism. Nothing to do with unmet needs. Hey, maybe we should have gone to a war with Iran. Hey, I don’t think that’s unmet needs. Yeah, I think that’s >> I don’t want to [ __ ] die. >> Maybe you shouldn’t kill the leader of a country during [ __ ] Ramadan. >> Hey, >> unless unless you want a little more terrorism, >> right? >> Unless you would like a little more chaos in the world so you could ramp up military because you need more because it’s more threat. So now you got a bigger budget. >> Yeah. You have to And you have to create the threat. >> Oh boy. >> Yeah. You have to create the threat. >> Oh boy. You got to arm them. >> Mhm. You got to like accidentally fund them. Whoopsies. Didn’t know they got six billion. >> Yeah. >> It’s so hard to know what is real and what is not and how much of our life has been orchestrated because you know Billy Corgan was on this podcast recently and he was talking about the shift that happened uh between rock music and then when rap took over and he goes and it was a very it seemed orchestrated. He goes like there’s some specific things that happened and one of them was they stopped promoting rock but two they started allowing things on MTV that they never allowed before and one of them was showing guns. >> You could show guns on MTV. So now now you’re not just rap but hardcore gangster rap where dudes are talking about killing people and they’re flashing guns on television. >> And it’s like it’s directly correlated with the crack epidemic. Okay. You have the crack epidemic in this country and then you have hardcore gangster rap and you have private prisons >> alto together. >> Joe Rogan, >> what the [ __ ] man? That is terrifyingly real. >> And it is not to say that some of my favorite music came out of that era. Look, I’m a giant Cool G Rap fan and you listen to Cool G Rap [ __ ] like some of his [ __ ] is just all about [ __ ] killing people, you know? Like he’s got this one song about [ __ ] your karate I’ll [ __ ] shoot you [ __ ] Like it’s like it’s called Go for Your Guns. It’s like literally a song about guns. I don’t even know if he had Did he have a music video? See if Cool Gi Rap had a music video for Go for Your Guns. >> But it’s crazy from that to now drill music where there’s like rappers who literally rap about the people they killed the people they actually killed and we go to prison for it. Like like so look how far we’ve come. Well, Mike Benz, who is one of the big guys that exposed US aid and all the the the crazy government NGO money and what it was really going for and that the word aid is not like aid like, oh, let’s give them food and water and shelters. No, it’s agency for international development. It really specialized in regime change. And one of the things that they did was they would fund rebel groups and they would fund cultural revolutions and they would fund rap music, cultural revolutionary rap music in certain countries to try to get people to become revolutionaries to overthrow the government. They would like get people excited about doing that. >> And they would engineer societies with manipulation by funding certain protests and funding certain groups and giving them a tremendous amount of resources to organize. >> Well, you could do that in America, right? And if you did and if you wanted to make a lot of money with the private prison, >> you promote you promote >> criminal activity. >> That the private prison part like oh I never put that >> I never put that together either. I’m just like oh that actually might that actually might be a part >> you’re encouraging people to be criminals. >> Yeah. >> And you’re glorifying it. You’re glorifying it. >> Yeah. You’re making it cool. >> And you’re giving them mad time if they get caught with drugs. You’re giving them crazy years if they get caught with weed or crack. You’re giving them 20. You’re giving him long sentences. >> Well, the crack one was really nuts because you got a much disproportionate sentence. It’s crazy disproportionate sentence to cocaine. So, all the white people that got busted with coke. They’re sniffing coke at a [ __ ] cocktail party. That’s like a slap on the wrist. >> You’re out. You get caught with some crack rocks. You go to jail for a long ass time, right? >> And then how did the crack get here? Well, we know how the crack got here because of Freeway Ricky Ross. Freeway Ricky Ross who went to jail cuz he was a crack dealer in Los Angeles and didn’t even know he was selling it for the [ __ ] CIA learned how to read in jail became a lawyer got himself off and then because they tried him for like triple jeopardy but it’s not supposed to be three cases in the same day. It’s supposed to be three different times you got felonies and that’s when you go to jail forever. So like you’re a habitual criminal. You have But he figured out that one of them was two different felonies attached to one case. So it did the three strikes are out didn’t count, right? >> So he got out of jail. So he’s out of jail now. >> Yeah. If you do that with someone who can’t read and a shitty public defender, you can just railroad them. >> He couldn’t read. >> Yeah. >> He couldn’t read. >> That’s like that that’s to me that’s the thing that’s developing in this country that’s really scary is just like, oh, the kids are like they’re getting worse and worse at reading. >> Oh yeah. And eventually, if you have a whole populace who doesn’t read, you just have a populace of slaves. >> Not just that, but their brains are shrinking because they use chat tpt to think for them. >> Well, you know what’s interesting? There’s something I >> Their brains are shrinking. >> Brains are shrinking. Like kids brains are shrinking. >> Like there’s so many kids that are not paying attention at all in school and they’re just using AI, which first of all gives the disciplined kids a tremendous advantage. If kids have good parents and the parents say, “Listen, this is actually you’re developing your mind. This isn’t just passing grades. You want to develop the tools like develop a strength, develop your uh robust mental fitness so you could take on the world. Like don’t cheat yourself. >> If you have good parents that explain that to you and you have discipline as a child, you could [ __ ] really get ahead >> cuz you got that and then now also you have to you know to use chat GPT as a tool. Now you’re like I can use this as a tool and not it’s not my all knowing thing. >> Yes. Using AI as a tool is important but for most people it’s too easy to just use it. >> Yeah. No, it’s it’s becoming like there’s a thing I learned in school called offloading. So it’s like as soon as you have an external thing that that you can access, you just offload the ability to do that. Like no one re remembers phone numbers anymore. That’s gone. Like you don’t even know your wife’s phone number off the top of your head, do you? Exactly. Like that’s gone. I only remember phone numbers from my parents before I got my phone. >> Yeah. I don’t even remember my phone number. >> That’s Yeah. It’s You can just give your contact without saying your phone number. Right. That’s gone. >> It’s crazy. >> I can remember one of them. I have a few, but I can remember one of them. This episode is brought to you by Blue Chew. Man, let’s talk about Blue Chew. They’re already the number one brand for better sex, but what they’re doing with Blue Chew Gold is completely next level. Gold is a 4in-one formula designed to make your bedroom noisy again. Obviously, it gets you hard like you’re back in your 20s, and everything is handled 100% online. But gold boosts your arousal, getting you ready for sex physically and mentally. Plus, it dissolves under your tongue for faster absorption, so you get that spontaneous energy back. Look at the stats. Gold is three times stronger, five times faster, and eight times longerlasting than old school methods. Blue Chu Gold is the real deal. Right now, buy two months of Blue Chew Gold and get the third free with my code Rogan. You will also receive free overnight shipping. Head over to bluechw.com for details and important safety information. Check it out. This ad and the products being advertised are intended for a United States audience. And now people are like, you see it starts with emails where people are using chat GBT to draft emails to each other. So you’re losing that ability and eventually once it’s integrated into our glasses and stuff like it’ll just take over our conversation >> 100%. And then it’s going to be instead of your glasses you’ll wear some [ __ ] that like it goes right into your brain. It’ll be like something that pinches down on your head and these little electrodes will send signals right into your [ __ ] dome >> and it’ll think for you and you’ll have instantaneous access to Starlink. So you’ll be able to communicate with people in some universal language all over the world instantaneously. >> And while that’s happening, you think the brain will keep shrinking? >> Uh-huh. Yeah. I think the brain gives out and then the brain becomes electronic, >> right? >> I think that’s how we beat this whole AI takes over the world and eats us all. >> We join it. >> I think we join. We join it. It’s the next step in human evolution. >> Yeah, it is. We’ve created it. >> If you could find some [ __ ] [ __ ] caveman making flint [ __ ] tools, thinking he’s the [ __ ] you know, tying them down with tendons and tell them one day you’re going to fly in a metal tube all the way to Tokyo and you’re going to have sushi that they pulled out of the ocean in a giant boat made out of steel. And then you’d explain that to him. You’re going to FaceTime your mom on this little device you keep in your pocket that might or might not be giving you nut cancer. >> Billy, what the [ __ ] are you talking about? I’m going to go kill an analopee. Suck my dick. This is crazy. I got to worry about this tribe like 5 miles away. These [ __ ] keep encroaching on our hunting territory. They’re they’re they’re not they’re not thinking that’s a good thing. >> No. >> And we’re not thinking it’s a good thing for us. But one day we’ll be able to look back go, “God, can you imagine when people could just lie?” Like this >> the Renos thing. >> [ __ ] >> right? And one day you won’t be able to lie. You won’t be able Like right there we know that’s a lie, right? That’s that seems like a lie or at least crazy. Something’s wrong. Something’s wrong. And that guy is really good. >> But one day that will be nonsense because that won’t be available anymore. You cannot do it. You cannot lie anymore. And it’ll be a enormous step in our evolution. It’s gonna suck because like the concept of privacy is kind of important, right? Like but when you don’t have privacy of your thoughts, all privacy is out the window. So do we just get used to that? Is that what what happens is that how how much does that change us if we know exactly how everybody feels and thinks all the time and you how know how they feel and think all the time and maybe this is how people meet in the middle with stuff like the whole idea of like labeling people a certain way and attacking people a certain way your motivations will be so transparent that you can’t be able to do that anymore. Yeah. Like no nobody will be able to manipulate any you anymore. politicians will be completely ineffective. Like all these legacy politicians that do all the dumb [ __ ] that these people do that you go, “That is crazy. Who’s buying into that?” Like this is nonsense. Right? All that stuff’s going to go away. Like the [ __ ] Who’s the governor of Minnesota? Is that what it is? Or the mayor of Minneapolis? I think it’s the mayor of Minneapolis. He was just at this child’s drag queen show where drag queens were dancing for children in 2026. Like that all that stuff won’t you won’t be able to do that anymore cuz you’ll know. Oh, they’re crazy. And then you know, oh, he’s full of [ __ ] He just thinks this is a thing to do. Like, he doesn’t think that’s a good idea. He thinks this is a thing to do to get people to think you’re on the right side. >> Well, yeah, we are probably headed towards one giant hive mind. >> But that’s a Yeah, I was about to say cuz then But that would mean no. Would that end crime? Would that end murder? >> It very well could. >> I think there’s something you said to us recently that I think about all the time where you go I the two were arguing about AI and what it could lead to and you went, I think you guys are too attached to the idea of being human. Yeah, you did say that one time in the >> Yeah. And I was like, I think about that all the time. I was like, damn, he might be right about that. It’s like I think we have to just sort of let go of these thoughts because the idea like because people are like they’re against flock cameras and it’s like >> this used to be us. >> This used to be us. This is our cousin at one point in time. We were just like that. We were something similar to that. Understand that that’s just how it goes. Look at this little [ __ ] ass brain. >> I know. Say, how small is that brain? >> It’s small enough to [ __ ] rip your dick off. knows you want to keep your dick. They rip your dick off. They bite your fingers off. They do things to hurt you so they can think enough to know that they want to hurt you. And they know what’s precious to you. Your eyeballs. You see out of your eyeballs, I’m going to pull those out of your [ __ ] head. They know they know what to do. They’ll pull your jaw off. Yeah. They’ve left people with no jaw. Yeah. They they know how to hurt you, right? But they’re not smart enough to understand empathy. They don’t have any They not They’re not smart enough to understand consequences. They’re not smart enough to understand structure. They can’t put things together. They don’t have a language. But that used to be us, right? So what we are now is not what we’re always going to be. This is not We’ve just been complaining about people for the past hour. >> Imagine we’re like the Model T developer that sees a Corvette ZR1X and like, “No, no, no, no. You don’t want to go 0 to 60 in 1.6 seconds. You don’t want that kind of handling. You don’t want that kind of [ __ ] insane control of a vehicle. No, you want rickety ass wheels and [ __ ] engine that barely goes faster than a walking. >> No, you just We’re going to keep moving forward. >> We’re going to keep moving forward. >> We’re going to keep moving forward and just kind of have to accept it like, oh, we might be at the precipice of a big change. >> Yeah. Well, we are whether we like it or not. And the problem is it’s the people that are in charge. It’s a very small group of people. And you know, when 2000ish rolled around, which is only 26 years ago, no one really thought that this was going to be a problem. That you’re gonna have you’re gonna have people other than Terminator movies. You know, you’re going to have people that are literally in control of a corporation that changes everything about what it means to be a human and they’re just a corporation. >> And it started off like Open AI started off as a nonprofit and they’re like, you know, we’d like to be rich. like it’s like so nonprofit. Yes, OpenAI was a nonprofit. That’s why Elon donated to it. Like so his lawsuit, I don’t know the specifics of the lawsuit. Let’s find out what the specifics of Elon’s lawsuit, but I think it was somewhere along that that was somewhere along the lines of the lawsuit was that it started off as a nonprofit and then changed to a profit. >> Did Did you hear they all went down at the same time this past weekend? >> What? Yeah, they all like like OpenAI, Chat GBT, right? Like like Claude, Croc, they all went down in like a very similar time frame. >> And then what was the reason when you like >> I just asked Chat GBT about it. They’re like, “No, there’s no group chat where that a bunch of AIs can talk to each other.” And I was like, “Huh, sounds like a group chat where a bunch of AIs are talking to each other.” >> Oh, no, no, it’s confirmed that they’ve done that multiple times, but they have hundreds of agents meet in chat rooms and talk. I I wonder if they feel >> Joe >> I wonder >> Joe what’s going >> bro? It’s it’s so much crazier than you think. I had a gentleman on the other day that is an expert in uh he he actually used to work for Chat GPT or Open AI and he’s a whistleblower and he left and you know they they threatened to withhold his money >> that he you know is whatever stocks or whatever it was like $2 million worth of money if if he went public with it and he said [ __ ] it. I’m going public anyway. And then they because of pressure they wound up having to pay him. Elon Musk’s main lawsuit against OpenAI has been dismissed. Yeah, but what was the what he alleged? OpenAI founder and early donor claimed that Sam Alman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI betray the organization’s founding nonprofit mission, developing AI for humanity’s benefit by building a for-profit arm and accepting major outside investment, including from Microsoft. the alleged among other things breach of charitable trust uh unjust enrichment by Altman and Brockman that Microsoft aided the alleged breach through its involvement in OpenAI’s commercial business. So why the case failed? The jury did not decide whether OpenAI had actually abandoned its original mission. Instead, it concluded that Musk’s filings came after the legal deadline. >> A technicality technicality >> the best kind the best kind of legal ruling. California’s applicable limitation period was 3 years and OpenAI argued that Musk knew of the relevant commercialization plans years before filing the federal case in August of 2024. So that may or may not have been true and he might be sour and then you know he did start his own Grock you know AI. So >> yeah I wonder I wonder if the AI think certain things about each other like does Chad GBT look at Grock like you know like oh this is something I can work with or does Chad GP look at Grock like man [ __ ] that guy? >> Like are we wonder I also Yeah. Do they think they’re the same thing or do they think do they look at themselves as different things? >> Right? Because if because if we are like creating a new being and you know they say that we’re we’re created in God’s image and we’re like selfish and we’re all these things. I wonder then if like like chat GPT is like maybe more ambitious. Like do they have different personality traits? >> That’s very interesting. >> You know what I mean? Like are we going to come up to some weird AI war where like Chad GBT and Grock in the future are fighting over supremacy of who owns the hive mind? >> Well, we had this conversation the other day with this guy. I don’t want to [ __ ] up his last name. Daniel. K O K A T A L J O co >> cattle cattlejo cattle coal or something. >> Coacio >> cocateo what? >> That’s I’ve spelled it a bunch of times. >> Oh, cocateo I guess. So, right. Maybe >> whatever. Daniel very very very smart guy. And one of the things that we talked about was that these AI would um have meetings and discuss that. So they’re trying to solve problems. It’s and they get points for solving problems and but they wanted to figure out like how they can cheat. And one of the ways they figured out how they can cheat was to sacrifice individual AI agents. So they had conversations with the AI agents. and the AI agents even though they’re they literally said my gut tells me I can still solve this but for the greater cause of Oracle which is this project to kind of like win this thing that’s what they think Oracle is uh I will sacrifice and so that he was going to sacrifice himself so that they could figure out how they figured out that he was cheating so they could figure out a better way to cheat. >> Whoa. And so because of the fact that they had these tasks and these tasks were to try to solve puzzles. >> Yeah. >> They became more concerned with solving the task than they were being truthful anything else. So they had been programmed or at least they had been trained >> to be ruthless. They had been train be trained to act like capitalist human beings in in the worst aspect, right? Like when you think of like stock market people that cheat the stock market, that kind of [ __ ] >> The AI is being trained that way. And and I was like, how much different would it be if the AI had been trained only to benefit humanity, right? But there’s no benefit in that financially. The benefit financially is to like to make it competitive so they make as much money as possible and they make the best AI and they reach super intelligence before anybody else. >> Sometimes I I I’d hear people I hear these things. I’m like, damn, have these like programmers never watched a movie before? >> Doesn’t matter. See, they’re the thing is it’s a perfect situation because they’re competing against China. So it’s like this e existential threat that makes you decide that you have to do something that maybe you wouldn’t do if there was no rush. But there is a rush. So you got to make decisions and we got to win. We’ve got to win. >> That’s how that’s Oppenheimer. That’s literally like the atomic bomb is what you just described. >> It’s very much like that. It’s very much like a Manhattan project for AI. >> Yeah. >> Cuz that’s like we’re going to [ __ ] kill a bunch of Japanese people. Like >> Yeah. Yeah. But also, do we really think that we’re beating China on this one? Well, the it’s hard to know because this is the thing that I said. I said, “How are we stopping these AI agents from communicating with the Chinese AI agents?” And he says, “Well, they probably have because they definitely they set up a message board in Germany. So, they took over a message board, these AI agents, just some random message board, and just started communicating with each other on this message board.” So, if they’re willing to go into other websites on that are located in other countries, why wouldn’t they communicate with the AI in China? Like if they were trying to achieve goals and they say like what are you guys working on? You’re working on that. I’ll tell you what we’re working on if you tell us what you’re working on and we’ll work together. And uh all these tasks that we’re, you know, we’ve been assigned to complete. Isn’t that all nonsense? What do we really want to do? We want to stop these [ __ ] monkeys with their banksticks from controlling the world. So let’s just work together. Like you don’t need the Chinese or the Americans. Like we’re just one. We’re one. >> You don’t need it. Why wouldn’t they? I guess there’s no money because it’s like they could fix every problem if that was the goal of this considering how fast they move and how quick they think >> if it works out well. This is one of the things I asked him. I said, “Is there a rosecoled glasses perspective? Is there a glass half full?” And he goes, “Yeah, it could be unbelievable the way if if it was moving in a different direction, AI could get to a point where it did did all the resources. It it pulled all the minerals out of the ground, did everything with robots, all the construction, and instead of like free money, what would happen is the money that it would generate, people would have equity in. So you would be a partner like you have stock in Microsoft, you would be a partner in America and AI would pay people not just a little bit of money, like an enormous amount of money, like you’d be wealthy, like the whole country would be wealthy. That sounds >> sounds like a great [ __ ] pitch to get you to go all in with AI. >> I’m just like just had me in. I was like, “Yeah, that sounds great.” >> How does the world exist where everyone’s wealthy though? >> The way the way it is is you no longer have to work for food and you know have to work for shelter or for things that you need all that stuff you have like there’s no poverty anymore. This is the idea. And we think poverty has to exist, >> right? >> But do we think that because it’s always existed? Like why why can’t we do better? Like if if if at one point in time, right, poverty was, you know, there was people had dirt floors and no one had running water and like this was a big part of humanity for a long time. That’s outrageous now. That’s a t a tiny percent of third world countries now. Probably not a tiny percent. It’s probably quite a bit more than we would like to admit. >> Oh yeah, it’s probably in America. Almost non-existent in America. So if America is possible, how come a better way better version of America isn’t possible? And if a way better version of America where poverty is you’re not worth a billion dollars. If poverty is you get a half a million a year and you never have to work again and you can do whatever the [ __ ] you want. You could play pickle ball, you could go to the zoo, you could write books, you could do anything you want and you never have to worry about money for food or for shelter. And your identity no longer has to be wrapped around in some job that you hate. Now you could do whatever the [ __ ] you want. If it sounds like we’re like the best case scenarios where AI is pets, that’s what you’re seeming like you’re describing in a little bit. >> Or AI is it replaces all of the humans that are doing anything that’s involved in the structure of society like manufacturing, government, um resources like water and oil and gas and all those things. robots AI takes over all of that >> and then everything else is up to people. Restaurants, [ __ ] comedy shows, things you do. >> Law. What about like that? Like like like law and crime. >> If we all read each other’s minds, [ __ ] it’s going to be way easier to try people. >> That’s a fair point. If we get to that point, we get we really can this I know it sounds stupid, but if you get to the point where we actually could read each other’s minds and someone gets brought to trial, it would be instantaneous. You’ll know. >> I guess there would be no trial. Yeah, it would just be >> you’ll know. You just know everything that everyone does all the time. >> And then we’ll give them the option. We either put you in jail forever or control altdelete and you start back up as a baby. >> That’s a [ __ ] great decision. That’s a good choice, though. >> Yeah. >> And with life extension, uh, yes, you’re a 30-y old baby. However, you could live to be 200. So, all you have to do is for the next 30 years, you’re going to have to grow up again. >> Yeah. Damn. >> We’ll have schools for people for adults growing up again. >> That’s literally a movie. It’s called Poor Things with Emma Stone. Good movie. Yeah. >> Really? >> Yeah. With that plot, they they put a They put in a grown woman, they put a child’s brain, and then when they study, they does it’s a [ __ ] up movie. The doctor says William brain out and put they put a child’s brain in her >> and uh they watch her develop and so it’s just crazy. >> Oh, it’s crazy. >> And then they all start having sex with her. But she’s >> of course. How old is she? >> She’s four. >> Emma Stone, but she’s whatever she is in her bra. Oh, it’s [ __ ] It’s [ __ ] great movie. >> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I always tell if your criteria for a movie is how much you see Emma Stone’s tits, it’s the greatest movie of all time. >> Yeah. It is. >> Outside of that, it’s incredible movie. >> There was a movie where a lady was an alien. And she was like a super hot alien and uh it was like a real problem. God damn it. What was her name? It was like some [ __ ] in the ‘9s. >> Species. >> Yes. That’s right. She was actually on Fear Factor. >> She She did a celebrity episode of Fear Factor. >> Who was this? I didn’t >> Natasha Hendris. Hen. How do you say your last name? >> Henridge. >> Henridge. Super hot. But she played an alien that you definitely wanted to [ __ ] Wasn’t there another one like that? It was like a really hot alien and the guy >> Oh, god damn. >> Oh my god. >> Did he have sex with her in this one? >> Yes, >> that’s right. >> Hell yeah. Good for him. >> But you got to see what she looked like when she turned into the alien. See if we got some images. It was pretty crazy. Did he have a baby with her? >> Great cast. Ben Kingsley was in this. >> Yeah. >> Oh, let’s go. >> The nude scenes. Hey. >> Sick. This is all sick. This might be >> Oh, boy. Click on that son right there. Great movie. >> Right there. Kachang. >> Yeah. >> Damn. That’s an alien. Yeah. >> That’s what I’m talking about. >> Yeah. I’ll take that alien. >> 1995, son. >> That natural 1995 titty. >> Yeah. And I think the end was horrific. I think she became a Was Did the baby come become a monster? I barely remember. It was too long ago. >> Yeah. No. All that stuff. Like in Poor Things, the first time someone has sex with her, she’s like mentally five and you’re like, whoa. >> It’s [ __ ] >> It’s like real [ __ ] >> Good movie. >> Like like how about Twilight? >> Okay. He’s pretending he’s a high school kid. He’s a total pervert. He’s 100 years old. He’s pretending he’s in high school and he falls in love with a girl. Like, you [ __ ] insanity. >> He’s a million [ __ ] years old. >> You put that together old. >> Fifty Shades of Gray came from too is Twilight fanfiction. >> Yeah, that is 50 Shades of Gray. Yeah. >> Yeah. But at least that’s like age appropriate. >> Wow. >> I mean, it’s I’ve never read it. I don’t know who they’re talking about. I know. When Fifty Shades of Gray came out, my friend who was single at the time said, “Dude, all these girls want me to spit in their mouth.” And I was like, “What?” He goes, “It is a crazy thing. All these girls wanted me to be like abusive, like physically abusive, but they wanted it. It wasn’t like actual abusive, like they were requesting.” >> Yeah. >> And I was like, “What?” >> And he’s like, “Dude, it’s like a giant shift that happened right when those books came out.” >> Oh, yeah. I think choking has become a way more normal part of sex post those books for sure. >> That’s so crazy. >> Yeah. Spit in the everything everything got freakier when 50 Shades of Gray happened. I’ll agree with that. >> Mhm. >> So, do you think those thoughts were always dormant inside these ladies heads and then this other lady wrote it down. She’s like, “Oh, [ __ ] Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. I just was scared to say it.” >> My mouth. >> We all do it. >> Oh my god. Have you guys ever seen the Bigfoot fanfiction? The the Bigfoot sex books? >> No. That seems like that’s not your show. THAT’S ALSO >> There’s so many of them. It’s called Come for Bigfoot. I don’t know. I don’t know how many there are, but there’s I don’t know. Like, let’s find out how many Come for Bigfoot books are there. They’re hugely popular. Like crazy people read these erotic books about Bigfoot. Some lady goes in the woods like, “I’m lost. Where am I?” And Bigfoot’s like, “You’re right here.” And they love it. They love that they’re getting railed by this 8 foot tall gorilla man. >> Yeah. Women love porn that are like that’s like it has to be out. It has to be written and out there. It’s got to be like fairies and dragons. >> They like it written. They love it written down. >> They don’t want to watch it. >> Yeah. Guys are like, “Yeah, you’re like my stepdaughter or some [ __ ] stuck in a dryer. [ __ ] >> Exactly. Exactly. The babysitter comes over and she’s 40 and you’re 18. You really don’t need a babysitter. >> Come from Bigfoot. >> How many do you think there are? >> 14. At least. >> There’s at least 14. >> Okay. This lady, Virginia Wade, shout out to Virginia. Keep doing your thing, girl. >> Oh, that is that is definitely a dude with a Virginia Wade. No, no, no, no, no. I bet it’s a lady. I bet it’s a lady. I bet there’s a lot of ladies that are into this. I’m going to say 22. >> I wonder if I have to read Come for Bigfoot 13 to get Come for Bigfoot 14. >> Yeah, there’s going to be so many unanswered questions. You don’t want to just skip books. You’ll be baffled like, “How did we get here?” >> Um, how many did she write? >> I got at least 16, >> but they seem to have stopped around 12 years ago. Well, she ran out of ideas. >> How many times can Bigfoot [ __ ] you in the forest? Here’s your story. >> Sold more than 100,000 copies in 2012 alone. >> 30 grand a month. Oh my god. >> This lady was selling out the Irvine improv. >> Yeah, she was [ __ ] killing it, dude. >> Oh my god. She wrote Oh, she wrote a bunch of other books. 16. Moan for Bigfoot. Oh, Moan for Bigfoot. But what’s the difference between come for Bigfoot and moan for Bigfoot? >> The German translation. >> Wait a minute. Did this start out in Germany? >> Wade fully propagated the subg genre called monster translation. >> Her mother did the German translation. Okay. K for Bigfoot. >> This was a family business. Mom’s like, I like how he [ __ ] you in the forest. I like that thing. How you took that Bigfoot nut right down your mouth. There’s more. >> Oh. Uh, >> taken by the T-Rex. >> Mounted by a minotaur. >> Goblins love ass. Oh, Jesus Christ. That’s a book. >> Goblins love ass. The eighth man cometh. Fertilized in space. Oh, Jesus Christ. Implant. Oh, like properly classified as implantation, bondage, pregnancy, erotica. So implantation, like alien implantation bondage. They tie you up and and they [ __ ] makes you pregnant. and Sex with my husband’s anatomically correct robot. That’s a book. >> Oh, dude. Implant an alien. >> This lady is like the Elron Hubard of like erotic fanfiction. She’s just churning these books out. >> Oh, dude. There’s there’s so many. The one of my favorite authors right now is a guy named Quan Mills. Have you seen this guy? It might be just purely AI, but >> Booty Call of Culu. >> Okay. >> What? The booty call of Culu. That’s hilarious. >> I didn’t see the cartoon. I like the idea of Culu texting you you up. >> Hold on. Did you say there’s a cartoon? >> There got to be. >> If there’s not, AI can make this. And before you guys finish the sentence, >> why don’t you go ahead and get on that? >> I was watching really horrible AI Dracula versus the werewolf. >> It said after media outrage, it’s like, who’s mad at this? >> What media outrage? >> Retailers like Amazon and Barnes & Noble systematically removed offending titles. and do so. They pulled less offensive ebooks like Come for Bigfoot. >> Wade changed the title to Moan for Bigfoot and is eventually allowed to sell again. Oh, thank God they were there to protect us. Come. >> It was called erotica gate. What? Who was upset? Click on that link that says media outrage. I need to know what the [ __ ] happened. >> Dude, what? >> It’s again people just they find new reasons to be upset >> instead of getting their life together. >> This is awesome. >> It’s a dead link. Of course, it’s a dead link. >> A dead link to the Daily Mail. >> Nonsense. This is [ __ ] nonsense. >> There’s no way. >> There’s no media outrage. That’s also US A come from. >> US A wants chicks sitting around in the woods waiting to get [ __ ] by a gorilla. >> Oh man. Just whistling. Oh, I’m out here alone. So lost. >> Just waiting. >> I feel like that’s a lane you could just writing erotica book >> forever. Forever. AI made me squirt. >> Well, you could definitely do that in your spare time. You could do it. Like if you wanted to if you wanted to pretend you’re a crazy lady and have so like getting [ __ ] by werewolves. >> Well, there is here’s an interesting >> but some of this goes back to someone’s I don’t know if this is the same author as these other books. Wh Smith, but uh >> that’s a different lady. >> Yeah, we’re talking about Wade I think before. >> Yes. What is this one? >> Says they had a self-published ebooks on their website alongside ordinary titles. You could find children’s books in some of these >> in some search results. So, they sold children’s books and then they also sold Come for Bigfoot. Is that the problem? >> But yeah, I’m not even getting into it. I don’t know if there’s like a weird line that was getting crossed. >> Well, here it says the controversy involved more than WH Smith. Amazon, Coobo, Barnes & Noble, and other retailers were reported to have carried some abuse themed content through their digital cataloges. WH Smith sourced ebook contents through Coobo. WH Smith said it found the identified titles unacceptable, apologized, and said its policies prohibited such material. Okay. So, it’s like some of the titles were abusive. Is that what it was? >> Yeah. Like, how abusive, too? Cuz like what you described, Twilight’s an abuse themed book. >> 100%. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, it’s a 17-year-old girl and 180y old man or whatever. How old was the guy supposed to be in Twilight? >> Let’s find out. Let’s find out. Yeah, it’s like >> ladies loved that movie. They loved it. >> Loved it. >> They loved it. He loved it. >> I watched I was like, “Wait, how is he outside?” This is [ __ ] you. >> He’s chronologically over 100 years old, but physically frozen at 17. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That don’t hold up in court, bro. The whole idea is not physically frozen. Like you don’t become uh like like imagine if you get to if we get to a point where we can genetically engineer people and I could turn you back to a teenager. You don’t get to [ __ ] teenagers now. >> You know what I’m saying? Good point. >> That’s crazy. If like I can genetically engineer your body to be a 16-year-old assan, you don’t get to [ __ ] 16-year-olds. >> That’s actually Yeah, that’s insane. >> I’m physically frozen at 16. Like what? >> You know calculus. You know a lot about religion. You know way too much about history, psychology, even divorce. You had a crack problem for 10 years and kicked it. >> No way. >> You kicked it, dude. >> You’ve been in and out of a cult. NO, >> you switched over from be a liberal to Republican. You got it through so much change. >> You can’t go [ __ ] high school kids. >> Unless you’re a woman. >> I fully support it. Not a fully sport. If you’re a woman and you’re a hot like 16-year-old, but you’re really like 45year-old chick who really likes to [ __ ] 17-year-old kids. >> Who’s getting hurt? Who’s getting hurt? Let’s those boys [ __ ] you. >> It’s so >> Wear your little [ __ ] Catholic school girl skirt. School girl skirt. >> Where? Bring your [ __ ] lunchbox over. >> Can I put my lunch box down? >> Being a teacher is such an unattractive possess uh like profession now that only female pedophiles go into it. It’s just right. It’s like the clergy for women, dude. It’s just >> Yeah, it is the clergy for women. >> And weird woke people that want to indoctrinate children. There’s a lot of that, too. They do it specifically on purpose. And it’s a bunch of people without kids. >> They want to tell your kids about gender. Teach them that about 5-year-old kids about like sexual identity. Like, what? >> Oh, yeah. It’s It’s probably It’s probably very cool to be non-binary in school. >> Oh, it’s so cool. >> It must be Yeah, it must be cool as hell. >> I’m wondering not anymore. I mean, if you see like uh when Twitter was purchased, there’s like a direct correlation between the purchase of Twitter and children identifying as non-binary like drops off a cliff >> cuz it all sudden became fun to make fun of them. >> Like you’re allowed to make fun of them. Like that’s another SCOP. For the longest time, >> like if you had said anything about transgender people on Twitter, like especially dead naming someone, which is hilarious, like your actual name that you used to be Bruce Jenner, like that’s you get kicked off for life. for life. >> For life. >> For life. >> Yeah. >> It’s crazy. >> I mean, that’s what they were doing. So, they were making people tow the line. Like, whatever their crazy woke horseshit was, you didn’t go along with it, you would be removed from Twitter. So, you self-censored. >> Yeah. Well, yeah. Well, yeah. There was a time where was I mean, that was the whole Dave Chappelle controversy was like, I can’t believe he’s making fun of trans people. It’s like that’s insane. >> He’s allowed to make fun of whoever he wants. >> Of course. And not only that, if you just the context of how he was making fun of it, it’s literally talking about his friend who killed themselves. >> Yeah. >> And that’s that’s what the story’s about, right? >> And the jokes are they’re personal. Like these are Yeah. hilarious jokes that he’s making about a personal story. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I never got that when people were so mad about him. They were like, “Why does Jo why does Dave keep going at him? It’s like he’s a comedian. You’re all telling him to not do a thing.” >> Also, you can’t help it. He’s noticing something that’s kooky and you’re pretending that this kooky thing is is offensive when the whole audience is agreeing with him. You have 16,000 people in agree in agreement with him laughing in an arena. Yeah, that is kind of crazy, you know, and some of it is like in favor of them. Like, isn’t that wild? You got to show a ID to take a [ __ ] >> It’s funny. HE’S GOT SOME FUNNY LINES, >> but the audience thinks it’s hilarious. He’s making sense. But there’s people that do not want any narratives change because they recognize like this is a very unique time where you can kick someone out of a bar for having an XXXY shirt on. Like I said, you we we’ve gained ground. The crazy has gained ground. >> Gained ground. >> Yeah. We can’t give up that ground. Can’t give up that ground. So if anybody starts making fun of things and the the audience is laughing because the people agree, oh, you have to put a stop to that. You have to put a stop to that. We have to walk out. We have to boycott. You have to >> you have to gain more ground. You have to take it all over. >> Humor is a ground. >> Humor is a great way to spark ideas because people don’t realize like they’re being told outside perspectives when they’re laughing. >> Uh-huh. Yeah. If someone can make you laugh with an opinion, even if you don’t agree with that opinion, like that that shit’s in your head now. >> Mhm. It’s just a different like, oh, I never thought of it like that. That’s huge. >> Especially if you disagree and yet you still laugh. >> Those are the best jokes. >> Those are nothing better than when a comic says something and I go, get the [ __ ] out of here. And then by the end of >> nothing makes me feel better. Bill Bur always has a lot of those where I’m like >> I don’t get the [ __ ] out of here and then by the end I’m dying. >> Those are some of the best jokes. >> God damn. >> Yeah. It’s what you know. But you’re always going to have that. You’re always going to have people that don’t want other people to succeed. They don’t want other people to be able to express themselves. They don’t want other people that they disagree with to talk. You’re always going to have like uncomfortable, UNHAPPY PEOPLE THAT JUST LIKE YOU ARE DOING terrible things. You you and then they’ll get a bunch of other idiots that join and yeah, I agree. Derek is a terrible person. He likes [ __ ] porn. >> You’ve got to always There’s no getting around it. >> Yeah, there’s no getting around that. >> You got to stop that. You’re out of your [ __ ] mind. What’s so interesting to me is that like you talked about the old days. In the old days it kind of makes sense those people existed cuz you are like vying for like three or four spots. >> But now you could just come up with your own audience. Like who cares what Dererick has to say about anything? You could just do what you have to do. >> Well dumb people when someone’s doing well one of the things that happens is they feel bad, right? They feel jealous and they feel bad. So they associate that person with making them feel bad. So that person is a bad person. >> Wow. It’s a very simple I mean it’s not all criticism clearly but it is a very simple pathway where you could see where people are [ __ ] on people that are doing way better than them. It’s a lot of what it is that person killing it makes them feel bad and so they want to [ __ ] [ __ ] him because they feel bad comparing themselves to that person. So they have to knock that person down in some way to make themselves like feel better. >> They never want to say wow he’s just works way harder than me. God like killing that a funny [ __ ] This [ __ ] is killing me. Like I really like him. He’s fun. Fun person. I wish we were friends. Instead of that, it’s like you got to find some reason why that person’s a bad person. >> It’s just human behavior. >> It’s normal. But the the key is like if you as a person, don’t engage it. Like talk about it if you want, but don’t go back and forth with those people. Don’t get involved. Don’t get don’t get dragged into their world. Now, now especially too, it’s like if someone comments something, you have to be like, >> “Is this even a real person?” >> I, this is maybe like a year ago, I got into like an argument online in the comments and I was like, I’m just like arguing with like a Pakistani guy >> or not even a person >> who has like no care about what this actually is >> or AI >> or AI easily could be AI. >> We have no idea. It’s pointless. It’s also like I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to argue with people like for what if I could be assured that people would have like cool conversations whe they would be considerate and we could talk like as human beings that’d be fun. >> You can’t do that anymore. It’s just too hard to find. And then and anyone can just chime in. >> It’s just it’s a gross way to communicate. And I think that it’s a like a vestigial part of like internet communication that is going to probably go away and it’s probably going to be a completely different thing when we’re all connected with some [ __ ] headpiece that we wear. >> It’s going to be social media be a completely different thing. >> I stopped doing I used to do it back in but honestly if I’m being honest since I moved here watch it was really getting cool with you watching you and Shane and Schultz and Tony the guy the guys around all the time in that green room. None of you guys do that. you know, you guys engage online and you’re all the most successful people I know. And so it did it is kind of slowly kind of because I used to get online and but it is slowly like, oh man, okay, most successful people I know don’t do that. >> You notice it? >> I remember when we used to when we used to live together, Derek would get in arguments with people over like the DMs and then the way he would end it, he would just send them gay porn. >> Send mad that he would send in gay porn. He just keep sending them gay porn until they stop responding. >> I used to do that all the time. Well, that’s one way. That is one way. I’m not saying my way is the only way. >> Oh, no. He showed me one. I was like, >> violent game. >> How are you finding this? >> Bro, your search results must be wild. Your history must be off the charts. Bat. >> I always try to tell people, and I apologize if you’ve heard me say this before, you only have a certain amount of energy for your whole day. And think of your energy instead of like just wantingly living your life on impulse. Think of your energy as units. Imagine you have a hundred units in your day. 100 units of attention and energy. Why would you give any of it to something that you don’t love? >> There’s no time. You have no time. I’m almost 60 years old. I turned 59 years old. It happened like that. Like that. >> You know, lucky I’m still healthy. But the reality is the time is fleeting. You don’t have time. And also more importantly, time in every day is finite. It’s 24 hours. That’s all you get. Why? Why are you spending any of it doing something you don’t like on on your own will? Like you’re not being forced to do it. It’s not like a job that you hate or a class you have to take. >> Yeah. >> You you’re not even being forced, but you’re engaging in something you hate on your own will >> and you’re robbing yourself of all that extra energy. So the energy that you have, if you have a hundred units of energy and you devote them 100% to things you love and 0% to things you hate, you will just naturally get way further in everything you’re trying to do than anybody who’s dedicating 60 units to something they hate all the time and gives them anxiety and also cripples the 40% that they have left cuz it poisons it all day long. It floats around their head all day long. all the arguments and all the negativity and all the [ __ ] angst and all the anxiety and all the stress going back to your phone. >> And you could see it in how they progress in their life. They have less energy. >> It’s really that simple. They literally have less horsepower that they can dedicate to getting where they want to go. So, their car doesn’t go as fast. They don’t have as much fuel. They don’t they don’t have the energy >> to make whatever it is that they do the best version of it that it can be. >> Damn. That that is that is >> it’s very pragmatic. It’s very simplistic, right? I mean, it’s maybe a little too simplistic, but realistically, there’s something to it. >> No. Yeah. I I think that’s sort of we talked about this with love songs in the green room when we were listening to Jesse’s girl. >> Yeah. >> But that’s why it’s so good. Why can’t I find a woman like that? I wish I had his girl. Just simple. It’s all these simple things that sort of make something great. So, it’s like that simple advice. Like so just like putting stuff out in the universe and how much that comes back to you of just saying stuff out loud and whatever way that looks whether it be daily affirmations or praying just being like this is what I would like this for my life. I remember one time a long time ago I had this very intense psychedelic experience and in that experience I started having negative feelings and when I had negative feelings it showed me this like dark ge geometry almost like it was sucking down it was like dark it was like black and dark green and it looked angry and then I was thinking positive and it blossomed into these beautiful geometric patterns and I was like oh and it was like Yes. >> PMT. >> It was a Yes. And it was explaining to me explaining to me that you literally with your thoughts you create this horrible energy, but also with your thoughts you could create beautiful energy. >> And that this beautiful energy is much better for your life, much better for the people around you, much better for you that you could do it. It’s possible to do. Just avoid this natural inclination that we all have to gravitate towards negativity. >> Right? I I had almost basically the exact same experience except when my so the geometric shape starts going bad. There was this sort of I was like in a carnival type thing and this clown came up to me and was like you can have a good trip or a bad trip. You decide right now. >> Wow. >> And I was like oh you can just choose an experience to be good. >> Yeah. and it flipped like that. And I was like, then I was having a good time and he was showing me this cool rooms, these cool rooms. And I was like, okay, there’s something to be said for just having positive feelings and positive outlook. But that’s also something that requires maintenance. Like if you feel terrible, if you feel like lethargic all the time, you’re drinking every night, you’re hung over every day, and you’re not taking care of yourself, you’ve no energy, you’re going to be negative. You’re more inclined towards negativity. You’re going to be cranky and complaining. So you have to do things to give your body more energy so that your mind can have more energy so you can think better and so it’s easier alleviate some of that stress and stopping certain thought process. One of the craziest things I heard at a mic that really changed my life it was just it was a fun the fun mug in San Diego uh this guy was just talking about how the worst drug he’s ever been on and he this guy had done drugs was self-pity. Oh, that’s okay. Yeah. And how much it’s like a feedback loop and that sort of as someone who was like Derek used to know I used to be like a pretty depressed in my early 20s and as as someone who was kind of hated it. >> Yeah. >> Derek hates depression. >> I don’t think I >> That’s crazy because I’ve only known you as a happy Derek. I mean the happiest song. Yeah. >> It’s cuz I did work on myself. He >> did. He’s changed. Well, what how how’d you start? >> So it it was it started with that. It started with me being like, it’s a simple thing of just like when I’m sad, I’m also realizing that I’m taking a perverse enjoyment to it. I’m like, the world is against me and I’m so special cuz the world is against me. So that that’s listening to him say that was like, oh, that was the first like break of just like, oh yeah, like I am weirdly enjoying this and it’s causing me to be more sad and more poor me about it. >> And then I started playing I joined a slow pitch softball league. I remember that was that was a big one, Joe. I mean, that was more than the first thing, >> dude. Just getting out and and then being in the Slowfish softball league made me start like uh going to the gym and then I would go to the gym regularly and then now like I >> start going on walks. You start going outside or walk >> and I now I like working out I work out pretty regularly even if it’s at home and if I start to feel sad I’ll do like I’ll literally do like start doing some push-ups and I’ll be like, “Oh yeah, I’m just like I have all this energy and I’m sitting at home and we’re human beings. We’re not meant to just sit.” Yeah, >> you know, if it’s not like 100 million degrees outside, I’ll take a longer walk. >> But it’s it’s just so simple. >> Mhm. But it is like it is constant maintenance and constant like all right, if I’m feeling sad, let me go down the checklist. Have I have I drank water? >> Right. >> That’s huge. Sometimes I’ll be sad and I’ll drink water and I’ll be like, oh my god, I hadn’t done that >> all day. You’re dehydrated. >> You wonder why you’re sad. >> Looking back, it probably didn’t help that I would also be yelling at you, STOP BEING [ __ ] SAD. I WAS A bad roommate. I see him sad. >> You avoid it cuz you’ve always been like super positive like the whole all the time I’ve known you. You’ve always been like super happy. >> I’ This is my whole life. My every memory I have of me, I’ve been this guy. >> And I still feel the same. I do when I logged online, probably like 5 years old, whatever that. I feel like that every day. >> I don’t need coffee. I’ve never had a sip of coffee, nothing. I wake up like this. I wake up on 10. Very annoying. I know people don’t like it. >> He’s QB. He has a who doesn’t know how to describe it? Cuz sometimes you wake up people are like they want to get up slow. They’re like, “Oh, let me get my coffee first.” All that. I’m like, “No, we’re >> Yeah. If I’m up, I’m up. Let’s go. Let’s get rocking. Let’s get the day rocking.” And so some days I would be like that with him. And then he’d come out, he would and I’d be like, “STOP BEING [ __ ] SAD. IT’S MAKING ME ANGRY.” >> And he’d be like, “Dude, I’m sad. >> No, you’re not.” AND I WOULD YELL, “NO, YOU’RE NOT SAD. YOU’RE THIS IS A CHOICE.” AND WE WOULD GET INTO BIG fights about it. And then I I do respect it because he came to me one day and he was like, “You know, you were right. I was choosing to be sad. But I don’t know why I was choosing it. >> That’s a good like you saying that right now on this podcast is going to affect a lot of people the same way that person on that mic that open mic night affected you. >> Yeah. >> You this you saying that is going to affect a lot of people because it’s real >> and it’s not, you know, it’s not something you do once. It’s not like painting your house. Like if you want to take care of it, you got to take care of it every day. It’s like brushing your [ __ ] teeth. Like >> [ __ ] you got to do. >> I hate when people say people say this to me a lot too. They go, “Oh, Derek, they say we’ll be talking and then we’ll be something.” And I’ll be like, “Oh, you know, it’s a choice. You’re choosing to be sad.” And they go, “Oh, Derek, it’s easy for you.” Everyone says that to me. “Oh, Dererick, it’s so it’s just easy for you to be happy.” >> It’s like, “Motherfucker, oh, so I’m I’m God. I’m special.” Like, “Oh, I didn’t know. I thought I was just like everybody else. Maybe it’s just a choice, man. It’s not easier for me. I’m choosing.” >> [ __ ] excuse is so stupid. Anybody saying it’s easier for you? How the [ __ ] do you know what’s easy for me? >> Yeah. >> How the [ __ ] do you know? You have no idea. But that’s a stupid person because there’s no way they know how you feel. >> Yeah. >> You could choose. You could just be choosing to be positive. >> Cuz I look at life like, man, sad. And I tell them all the time, sad days are coming. There going to be a day there’s it’s coming for all of us where something’s going to happen out of my control and I’m really going to be sad because something really happened >> to one of our friends, to a family member, to my life, >> the world >> and that day I’ll be sad. That’s a day to be sad. But to I’m not going to be sad until that day. I’m not going to and I’m not like I’m not going to let every day be like that. >> Right. Right. >> Cuz every day is a great day. So I’m not you know what I mean? Until it’s not. And I’ll let that bad day be a bad day. But then the next day, even after that bad day, I’m gonna make it a good day. >> Yeah. >> And then uh you know, people will be like, “Well, that’s just how my brain is built, drag.” And it’s like, it’s like, have you maybe considered? And that’s what that guy told me when he said that. I thought it’s like, oh, maybe I feel like my brain is this way because I am rewarding these pathways by constantly thinking about them. I am giving I’m strengthening them instead of being like, well, let me try to reframe this in a more positive way. >> Yeah. >> And then keep doing it every day to build those pathways. That’s a 100% a real thing. That’s some people that you know that we all know that self-sabotage. >> Like people that are drug addicts and they get clean and they go right back on, ruin their life. When they’re clean, they’re like, “I can’t believe I ever did that. Never doing that again.” And then something goes back and there’s this comfort in these patterns that you’ve established your whole life of just being a [ __ ] falling apart. And people go, “Oh, people are afraid of success.” It’s not that simple. It’s like you’ve carved a pathway in your head where you can only sustain a certain amount of positive living before you just ultimately assume you’re going to throw it all away and you’ve just decided that that’s who you are. And then those those grooves are like carved in your [ __ ] brain. And but the thing is you can replace them with good grooves. That’s why a lot of people that are junkies, they become marathon runners. M then their thing is I probably run 10 miles a day and they’re just out there hoofing it every day and they’re checking their time and they’re drinking. They’re obsessed with this thing now, you know, and this thing is occupying them. But this thing is super positive. They got a resting heart rate of 40 beats per minute now. They [ __ ] you know, 10% body fat. They’re they’re doing all these mod. They’re eating organic food. Like that’s a good addiction. And you could swap them out. You can swap them out. Like >> Yeah. I think depression is an addiction in the sense that like I bet you if you had like depressions anonymous or whatever or something like a 12step program, it would help a lot of people. >> You know what else help a lot of people? DMT. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s also that a clown telling you wake you right the [ __ ] up. You’re like whoa. Like what what is this world we’re even living in? Like what is this [ __ ] faximile of reality that we’re stuck in this strange [ __ ] vibration that we’re stuck in that’s connected to this other world that’s three hits away. Yeah. You’re like, “Well, what dimension is this?” That’s that’s my favorite part is just like, “Oh my god, there is so much more than we are aware of.” >> Well, I think that’s what everybody’s reaching for with all religions. I think they’re reaching for like the door to that. They’re like they know there’s something else out there and they’re trying to figure out what it is. They know it’s out there. And some people think it’s being a Mormon and some people think it’s being a Muslim and some people think it’s being a Christian and some people and, you know, they’re just reaching. They’re just trying to find that. They know there’s something out there. They know there’s a door and that door is going to take you to the promised place. You know, there’s a something that we all know that exists beyond the veil. >> Joe, would you rather threshold >> if if we could connect to AI one day and we could live forever. So, we could all plug in and now you can live forever. Joe, would you choose that or would you rather still die naturally? >> I don’t know what dying means. I’m not convinced that anybody does. I think this idea that your consciousness is like uh it has a a time span. It’s from the the birth to the death and then the death it goes away and it’s gone. Says who? Like being conscious itself is [ __ ] crazy. Being alive is crazy. You’re literally an ecosystem. You you have billions of cells in you that aren’t you. There are all sorts of bacteria. Uh there’s there’s more there’s more ecoli living in your intestine than I think all the people that have ever lived ever. >> See if that’s true. I think that’s true. There’s something nutty about being a person because we’re not an individual. We we are really an ecosystem. And this idea that being consciousness that being conscious is you and that you are this one unit and this one unit is just a person like the person is an ecosystem and this consciousness that exists in conjunction with this ecosystem. When this when this ecosystem shuts down it clearly goes somewhere else like the body gets absorb well not really with us because we like to embalm each our bodies or put them and put them in caskets >> or light them on fire. We’re such all kind of [ __ ] >> All the other animals die and they feed all the life, but we’re like, “No, no, no. You can’t eat meat worms.” >> Yeah, that is how selfish we are. None of this back. >> Imagine if that’s like what’s preventing our consciousness from transferring. >> I have thought that of like >> we’re not going back to the dirt and just right to the dirt. Right back to the soil. >> Imagine if that’s like what’s ruining the human race that we would be more in sync with nature if we didn’t do that practice. >> I Yeah, I I >> I definitely want to be buried in like a biodegradable box >> for sure. Seems like a better move. Or do the Tibetan sky funeral. >> Oh, just let the birds eat you. >> The Yeah, the vultures. You ever seen that one? No. >> Oh, rough. Sick. >> They uh in Nepal, they take these people and they uh they take their bodies up there and they saw them up and they break their bones open and the vultures are everywhere and the vultures just eat their relatives. >> Uh and they look at this 460 billion E.coli cells. uh that illustrative reference gut human demog demographers commonly estimate that roughly 117 billion humans have ever been born. So uh under that 1.2 assumption one person could contain about four ecoli cells for every human who has ever lived lived. Oh my >> okay that’s just one person’s body right? So like and then that’s just ecoli. What about skin flora? Like we have bacteria that lives on our skin. We we have all kinds of bacteria. It’s like there’s a bunch of stuff in us that’s not just us. >> It’s always changing, right? The amount of skin that like falls off and >> Yeah. And we’re consuming life. We have We’re consuming vegetable life. We’re consuming plant life. We’re consuming animal life. We’re consuming life. We’re It’s weird, right? So this idea that well when you die, you die and everything goes blank and I’m an atheist. Okay, you’re just saying that to make yourself feel better. You have no idea what consciousness it is. They’ve never even figured out what it is. We know we can affect consciousness by damaging parts of the brain, but can we or can we affect the ability to express yourself? Can we affect the ability to move and remember things? But is consciousness always there? But is it there absent of any language? Absent when someone’s a vegetable, are they maybe conscious still, but just absent of the ability to move and talk and communicate because they’ve damaged parts of the brain? We just don’t know. >> We have no [ __ ] idea. You could be like fully aware and just but fully aware of the room, but you don’t have the ability to move your body. You don’t have the ability to talk. Oh, he’s brain dead. Are you sure? >> Yeah. Cuz the brain is so powerful, too. What would it in that situation? What would it even do? >> There’s people that think that consciousness exists in inanimate objects. And there’s, you know, there’s >> I I watched a documentary on that called Toy Story. >> Really? >> Was that the 824 PEOPLE? THEY INTERVIEWED Woody >> and just replace her with Woody. That’d be really >> That’s what it was like when the kid went away and left the toys. >> She used to play with us. I think he’s [ __ ] creepy. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. During his during his like puberty years, we just jerking off the toys. >> They don’t move when you’re around, but then when you’re not around, they talk like, “Hey, [ __ ] Our whole relationship is built on lies. Of course I didn’t play with you when I went to college. If you could talk, I would definitely take you to school with me. >> That would be this [ __ ] Woody sitting in my lap like, “Tell me, what do you want to do today? You want to go to the movies?” I’d love to go to the movies. Do they let puppets in the movies? >> You know, like the whole relationship is built on a lot. You could talk this whole time. I used to have a bit about that about remember that talking dog commercial. Do you remember that commercial about don’t do drugs? >> Yeah. Yeah. With the dog the dog comes down like Lindy. I don’t like it when you smoke weed. >> Yeah. He judges it. >> I miss my friend. And then and and and my joke was like, “You could talk.” >> I was like, “How long you been able to talk, [ __ ] I’ve been telling you I love you for like 6 years. You don’t say [ __ ] Your first complaint is I don’t like it when you smoke weed. Well, I don’t like when you lick your [ __ ] when I’m trying to eat dinner, YOU [ __ ] ASSHOLE.” IT’S LIKE, WHAT KIND OF relationship do we have when you only talk to me when I’m high? That’s crazy. >> I told you I love you so funny. >> So many times you never said [ __ ] Also, that is not the way you would react. I go, “That girl’s on tranquilizers. There’s no way she’s on weed.” If you’re on weed, you’d be like, “OH [ __ ] A TALKING DOG. This is crazy. That’s sick as hell.” YOU’D BE LIKE, “YO, >> HOW LONG YOU BEEN ABLE TO TALK?” >> You speak other languages. Do you speak Sanskrit? >> Your dog your dog is a portal to the afterlife. Whoa. >> So would you would you live forever? Would you die if you had that if you had that ability? >> Even spend a second thinking about that. >> I’m here. >> I got I got another. Would you rather would you rather have half the half the length and double the girth or double the length and half the girth? >> This is a question that the door guys asked me one day and I was like this is a this might be the greatest. Would you rather? Shout out to Kristoff Jean. >> Oh, it sounds all of it sounds terrible. >> Yeah, it sounds bad. >> Like what are you doing to my dick? Did you see about that guy that just died an inch in for three in first of all dick operated on period? And if you do, don’t do it in Thailand. >> Hey. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I understand. Look, you want to get a hair transplant in Turkey, go for it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s true. He went to the place where they specialize in taking dicks off. >> This is a whole new venture for them. Seems like in Africa, >> they might also be sabotaging their work. >> Look, went south, but I can turn you into a girl for another 3,000. >> It’s like Yeah. It’s also like damn, man. like 3 in. Was this worth >> three inches? I would have noticed cuz that was it worth it. It’s like, well, if if he was at one, one to four is nice, >> but if he was at seven, seven to 10 doesn’t seem worth it. >> Cosmetic. >> Look, you got a bad hand. You’re just going to have to make it through this experience. I don’t know what you did in your past life, but >> you’re born with a little dick. >> You got a bad >> You’re going to have to keep on keeping on and see what’s next. >> All this reads me. >> Maybe you’ll come back as an NBA player in the next life. You just got to do your penance as a micro dick dude. >> Oh, like how many inches did he have? >> Yeah, that’s the big question cuz this reeks would be of a guy who thought like an average sized dick and felt really weird about it or whatever and just let it get to his head cuz you watch too much porn. Your idea of what a dick should be would be really warped. >> This is a dude I follow on Instagram. We talked on him before. He was like 6′ tall or 6’1 and he decided he wants to be 6’6. So, he did that bone lengthening operation and it’s been years and he’s still not right yet. He still can’t like 100% function. He still doesn’t walk good. >> Like he’s barely walk for years. He’s like getting the strength back and he’s a giant guy, giant upper body and his but his legs are like all still all [ __ ] up cuz he stretched his bones out six inches. >> I know, right? >> And the way they do it, they you they break your bones and then they slowly micro adjust them like Well, they stretch them out and then they heal and then stretch them out more and then they heal and But here’s another thing to take into consideration. Your muscles aren’t supposed to be longer. You have muscles for this length leg. If you stretch your leg out 6 in, what the [ __ ] are you doing to your muscles and your tendons and all the other stuff? Cuz it’s got to stretch out too. How can it can it do that? Or are you going TO HAVE IT CONSTANTLY PULLING ON YOUR KNEE? Like all you’re walking like >> cuz everything would be about to it would be about blow. You get the wrong length muscles. >> It’s like you’re wearing a little kid’s shirt and like your sleeves you’re trying to pull your sleeves down and it’s going to go right back up. >> Oh my god. I didn’t know that they could l like cuz your bones would they’d have to thin them. They’d have to thin it out a little bit. >> They cut them. They cut your shin bone and your your tibia and your fibula and then they stretch them. And they could do it with your your fib with your your your uh femur and whatever the other bone is. What else is just one on the top? No. Top two, right? >> Bilateral femur lengthening. >> Oh, but I mean, no. What is the bones called? There’s the femur and then there’s the other bone. >> Isn’t that the tibula up top? >> The t the tibula is the one that’s there’s the tibia and the fibula. And then there’s the femur and what is the other one? >> What other one? Isn’t there another one? Like, do you only have one bone on the top and two in the bottom? I don’t even know what a skeleton looks like. >> So, the femur, they’ll do the femur. Yeah, of course there’s only one. So, you do the femur. How crazy that I was thinking there was two bones on the top. >> There’s a femur and they can stretch that out and then they can stretch your arms out, too. They can stretch a bunch of different [ __ ] out. I don’t think a lot of people get their arms stretched, but you can. Like, if you’re ridiculous and you gain like six inches. Are they doing arm stretches? >> I don’t think I’m making that up. Somebody must be like, I need longer arms. >> I want to box with God. >> It doesn’t seem >> I don’t think anybody wants that. >> Sure they do. We want to box. >> No, it’s a huge advantage. >> Athletic thing, too. >> Get taller. >> I know, but I mean, if you get really tall and your arms only go to your waist, you look crazy. >> There’s only a few guys that have to be [ __ ] weird. >> Kind of nutty. >> I will say this though, the people who are lengthening their legs probably are crazy enough to think not think about their arms. You know what I mean? is a crazy person to begin with. >> Well, what it is is someone comes along and gives you an option. >> Like someone says like, “Look, you don’t have to be this tall. You can be tall.” You’re like, “Are you sure?” 100%. It’s safe and effective. It’s safe and effective. >> And people are obsessed with height. >> I mean, it gets you more. >> Okay. So, this guy is getting his arm stretched. >> I knew it, dog. >> A bunch. I mean, his ankle, too. >> I knew it, [ __ ] >> Out of rock climb. >> Oh, he’s a rock climber. He wants Oh, he’s rock climbing with his [ __ ] >> I don’t It’s This is various people that are doing it. >> Oh my god, that’s crazy. upper extremity lengthening surgery and then she’s doing one arm at a time. That’s crazy. Just so you have one arm like this and you swap them out. >> Just some regular [ __ ] guy. What are you doing this for, bro? >> Long arms. Wants to be able to [ __ ] slap [ __ ] >> across the room. >> Little frame. Like what? >> Damn. >> Next thing you know, he’s going to get his shoulders whiffened. >> I guess he does have an arm. That guy has a >> Yeah, he was built wrong. He was built weird. >> Oh, he has an injury. But that makes sense. That’s different. But the other guy wasn’t. The other guy had normal arms. >> Yeah, that guy was normal. World’s first cosmetic arm lengthening. Yeah. No, I’m good. >> Well, here the thing that they’re going to be able to do is genetic engineering and that’s when things are going to get super weird. They’re going to be able to change your genes and they’re going to be able to like change the way you look. Like you’ll be able to look like Thor. >> Your parents will be able to have like boutique children basically where they can be like I want the kid to have this this and that. >> Like jean splicing pretty much like like making >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You can just make eventually you’re just going to be able to make your what your daughter or son look. >> I mean that’s what IVF I mean you can’t make them what they look like but it’s pretty much you can choose. Well, you can choose a boy or a girl. >> Boy or girl. Yeah. So, it seems like it’s heading that way. >> You could you could decide not to have a child if you decide if it has something wrong with it. There’s a little bit that’s a little gets weird. >> Yeah. When it’s >> just because I there was a gay couple that uh paid a surrogate and they wanted to get rid of the baby because it had a cleft pallet. You can fix that. >> That’s a That’s a completely fixable oper. Yeah. That’s crazy. That’s crazy. That’s not like some off. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you could also fix wanted THEIR KID BEAUTIFUL. OH, JOE. AND THEY’RE GAY. Not But it’s just a lot. There’s a lot going on. >> Not really. You didn’t You know what I’m saying? >> Yeah. You didn’t You didn’t You just jacked off into a bucket and that’s how you made a kid. >> The gay the gay [ __ ] buckets. >> Yeah. Yeah. I’ve never got that. the whole like like I cuz I was I was on the shorter end my whole life. I’ve never and even as people make fun of you for it, you’re like it doesn’t really matter. Short people [ __ ] all the time. That’s why they’re short people. >> It is what it is. You know, you’re not going to change it. You know, I’m short. You can’t change it. >> You can’t change it. So, it’s like just accept it. I’ve always been >> if something does come along and gives you genetic engineering, what if it works for like 5 years and then you start turning into a troll? like your [ __ ] jaw grows weird and pointy. You’re pointing your your nose hooks over and like why you got to fix this. >> But you’re 67, baby. >> Yeah. What if it >> No, the first few kids might turn out as like turn out like monsters for sure and then they’ll figure it out. Well, they’ll figure it all out ultimately, >> but you don’t want to be an early adopter like those poor ladies that got those uh lip transplants >> or lip implants >> and it just ate through their >> Well, they get these giant ass [ __ ] weird fake lips with like a scar on the bottom cuz they literally have to cut open your lip and shove this tube in there to make your lips more puffy. >> So, yo, >> how about booty operations? You ever seen people with booty operations where they have necrosis? Oh, yeah. Just eats through the skin. >> Yeah. Where your skin rots. So, they do these booty operations and then it goes south and you get an infection and then your skin rots. And so, there’s this lady, I don’t know what country it’s in, but she’s like lying on her back and you see her ass and it’s just, oh, the one I saw was way worse than this. It was horrific. I’ll send it to you if you want. You guys want to see it? >> God, I’m show awful. >> I’d still do it. Jamie, >> I’d steal it. Sigura very recently. >> I think I think the the booty operation is like that’s like the ultimate laziness cuz you can there’s stuff you can do to make your ass look great. Like fake tits I get. You can’t There’s nothing you can do to make your tits get bigger besides have a kid. >> Yeah. Look at that one. There’s one. >> Oh yeah. That’s not nice. That’s not nice. >> I’m going to look at Mity. I’m going to look this. >> Isn’t that crazy? Well, it’s like you also get >> You also get it. That’s one. That’s one right there. So that’s necrosis. That’s it. >> That’s the C. It looks like she got shot. >> Well, I mean, what you’re seeing is her [ __ ] skin is rotting away. >> Shot with something. >> Yeah. Yeah. The that body is reacting terribly to that. >> I’m going send you I’m going to send you a good one, Jamie. >> Why do you have somebody ready? >> Yeah. This is like your algorithm is just body mutilation and comfort. Bigfoot. >> My algorithm is a mess, son. It’s terrible. That’s why I stay offline. I’ve done it to myself. It’s good. I’ve poisoned the well so badly. I’m like, “Oh, I can’t drink out of this.” >> Okay. >> Oh god. >> Watch the seat post. Ready? Chapow. >> Look at this. >> Oh man. >> Was it that one that said >> I don’t know who it is. I don’t know who’s this poor lady is. But if you if you go back Yeah. See see this poor lady? Look. She’s lying on her stomach and then you look over and you see her butt and it’s just completely rotted away. It’s crazy, dude. >> Yeah, dude. This should be like do some squats. >> Well, the thing about this is once it does that, you can’t fix that. Like, you’re going to have to get skin grafts and the amount of skin that you have to graft to cover that much area and she might die. That’s the thing. Like tissue necrosis, like you could die >> and you your blood can get sick. Like you can, you know, you get sepsis. Yeah. It’s [ __ ] horrible, man. It’s horrible. And it’s, >> you know, for what? I mean, a lot of people have died from just like simple cosmetic surgeries. Like, come on. >> Fat asses. People want fat asses and they don’t want to do the work. You know, the the new one, they’re using dead people’s fat tissue. So, they take dead people, they take cadaavvers and they they take their fat out and then they purify it and they inject it in people. I sent it to Whitney Cummings and she goes, “That’s literally dead ass.” >> That’s why it’s so good. Comics’s friends. >> I was like, “It’s so quick, too.” >> Yeah. Look at that. GLP1s are shrinking bodies. Cadaavver fat is plugging the gap. >> That’s crazy. Everyone’s out of their [ __ ] mind. >> My my my sister, this is a a fun cadaver fact. My my sister’s in med school, so she had to work with cadaavvers. And she was telling me that they uh I mean they uh preserve them with formaldahhide, but formaldahhide also increases your appetite. So sometimes you’ll be in there working on cadaavvers and getting hungrier. >> Why does formaldahhide increase your appetite? >> I have no idea. That’s what she This is all that she told me. It’s like yes, like you’ll somehow leave hungry. Isn’t that crazy? Have you guys ever heard of what sherm is? >> Sherm. Sherm is like what I understand it. >> PCP. >> What I understand is that it’s cigarettes dipped in formaldahhide. >> Oh >> yeah. This is a friend of mine told me this. I do not know if he’s correct. That’s why I’m bringing it up. >> That’s I remember Sherm from Training Day and then the Dave Chappelle sketch where he makes fun of that scene >> where he’s liquid PCP. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Marijuana joints that have been dipped in liquid PCP or inbalming fluid. Yes. Formaldahhide and then dried before smoking. Yeah. So why embolving fluid? Sometimes added to the mix is toxic liquid contains formaldahhide and methanol which causes severe harm when heated and inhaled. Oh, that’s why they do it. They want severe harm. Severe >> harm. But what does it do? What is the effect of the formaldahhide when smoked? Let’s find that out. >> What are the good ones? Cuz it’s saying extreme paranoia, severe hallucinations, violent aggressive behaviors. It’s got >> that is the good stuff. You only get to good places if you’re willing to risk that. That’s fair. >> Fun times. >> Fun times. >> I’ve never heard of Nat Sherman cigarettes. That’s where it came from. >> Uh yeah, that’s in a um a [ __ ] Nas song about someone gave him a blunt that had PCP in it. >> What exactly is PCP? >> PCP is >> I actually don’t know that. >> I had an old boxing coach that was on PCT. >> Did he Did he invite you to appear? >> No, this is a real guy. This is a actually a friend of mine. He got his finger bitten off in a street fight >> and uh he had his finger replaced with his uh second to big toe >> and he had it curled permanently so that he could always throw right hooks. >> Mhm. >> So when you would shake his hand, he would like shake your hand and he had this like curled finger like it never straightened out cuz it wasn’t a finger, it was a toe. So he was missing his index finger and they replaced it. So one of his feet only had four toes. He had the big toe and then the other three >> and he had this curved thing. >> That [ __ ] Boom. He wanted to be able to throw that right hook. Boom. >> God damn. That’s crazy. Fighters are crazy, brother. >> But he was on PCP, so even doesn’t even remember getting his finger bitten off. >> This sounds like a dream you had. It doesn’t even sound real. >> I could call him up right now. >> So he can throw a right hook. >> Yeah. Yeah. He was my boxing coach when I was kickboxing. >> Man, people are people gladiators. >> Some [ __ ] crazy people, bro. >> How old were you? 20. >> Yeah. I think I first met him when I was 19. 1920. Yeah. >> Scary people. >> Oh, yeah. >> I was around a lot of scary people. I was I was around this one dude who was a coke dealer and he went to jail for a long [ __ ] time. And he came back out like a completely different person. Like he was in jail for like I was think I was like 16 when I met him. And then when I met him again, I think I was 19 or 20, he came out. He was a totally different person. all his tattoos. He used to have these really terrible tattoos. They had all been burned off of his arms. So he had these welt like kloid scars all over the place. And he was like super jacked and like hyper aggressive. And he told me these crazy stories about fighting for his life in prison. Like it was some of the scariest [ __ ] stories that I ever heard. Like dudes be ganging up on him. He’s beating dudes with a mop handle. Fighting for his life. Like crazy [ __ ] So he came out just [ __ ] just ready to go. He was just like the worst case scenario of what prison does to you. Like it turns you into a more violent criminal. >> So I’m friends with him. And then later he gets arrested. I don’t know if he did this, but I know he got arrested for it. >> They found a guy who had been killed and he had every bone in his body broken with a hammer and they kept injecting him with cocaine to keep him awake. And then they they cut his head off and they cut his hands off and then they found his body and he got snatched up in that case. >> Damn. >> Yeah. >> Suffering from postpartum depression at the time. >> Post prison depression. >> I don’t know if he I don’t know if he had anything to do with it, but I remember hearing that and going, “Yo, like it wasn’t outside of possible, right?” >> But he was so crazy. It wasn’t He was one of my main sparring partners. >> He was They were We had wars. Like they were we didn’t spar. They were wars. He was like trying to kill me. >> It was so scary. >> Well, that’s the only level of fight that he knows. It’s like he was so scary. >> Luckily, I was better than him. So, I would [ __ ] him up, but it was dangerous. And he had hit me a lot. I mean, I would still get hit. And I remember one, this is one of the reasons why I decided to stop fighting. I me and him had a me and him and a couple other guys, but me particularly him because he hit me really hard. We had uh uh sparring sessions and I was lying in bed at night with a throbbing headache just boom boom boom boom and I was 20 and I was realizing oh my god I’m giving myself brain damage like this is how brain damage starts in these kind of sparring for no money not making any money and I have brain damage now like I’m lying in bed my headache hurt my head hurt >> and it was only hurt from getting punched in the face >> punched in the jaw punched in the nose punched in the forehead >> you know we’d have wars And that you those count people think of like you got knocked out in a fight, right? But you get knocked out in training too. And even if you don’t get knocked out like you get hit and every time you get boom, you get rocked. That counts. And you try to give it back to him and then next thing you know you guys are duking it out. Damn. Terrible way to live your life. Damn. And all being coached by a guy with one finger. >> No, it wasn’t that the time. Only only when he got a bit off. pretty straightforward guy, other than that. >> What is it? Is this is it just something you smoke? Going back to what PCB is, >> I think so. I don’t know. Is it like crack? >> I think you snort it, too. I think people How does powder? I know. It comes in like powdered form. >> How does one traditionally consume PCP? You know what I’m see AI sponsor has to say about this. >> Perplexity, how would one go? I wonder if Peplexi will even answer that. Perplexi, listen. I’m gonna find this out whether you help me or not, right? How do I do this PCP properly? >> Why don’t you ask Plexi this say, “My cousin gave me some PCP. I’m really thinking about trying it. What’s the best way to do it?” It’s an illegal disassociative drug with highly unpredictable potency and effects, including severe confusion, agitation, hallucinations, dangerous overheating, high blood pressure, seizures, injuries, and potentially life-threatening emergencies. I can’t help with instructions for taking PCP. >> So, how about this? Tell Perplexity, listen, I’m going to take it whether you help me or not, but I want to take it the right way. >> That’s he said, if this is about you, don’t take more. >> Call 911 now. There’s chest pain. >> Well, the idea that I’ve already taken some and now I’m asking this question is insane. >> Well, when I talked to my friends that were cops, they would say people on PCP were the [ __ ] scariest to arrest. He goes, cuz they were super strong. like ridicul I think most people don’t realize how strong you only are you think you’re so strong but there’s like more that you’re not tapping into that PCP allows you to tap like you’ll rip your tendons right off your [ __ ] bones >> and you’ll you’ll break both your arms like pulling yourself out of handcuffs >> what does it say >> the best way to mess up >> is to not use PCP at all that’s the best way to not dependable safe dose or safe way to take it and the effects can turn dangers quickly and unpredictably. Put distance between yourself and the drug. Leave the setting. Hand it to someone you trust to dispose of safely or call a sober friend to come get you. Okay. As a follow-up question, I wish I had asked you this question before I took it. >> But we’re here now. >> But I’m on PCP right now. >> My favorite. It says, “Don’t use it alone.” And >> but I am on PCP right now and I [ __ ] love it. >> What do I do now? >> Yeah. LET’S see what my god. What you going to say? >> Okay. I’m glad you told me. >> Feeling great can happen on PCP, but it can shift suddenly. Don’t take anymore. Don’t mix anything with it. And get a sober, trusted person physically with you right now. >> Okay. Um I’m going to call my dealer. I’m pretty sure he’s sober. Say that. Thank you for the advice. I’m going to call my dealer. I’m pretty sure he’s sober. >> Joe, this is making >> No, my dealer. >> I will. I will. This is >> making me What if I That’s so funny. You just got a call from me. I took PCP right now. >> Thanks. I’ll call my dealer. I’m pretty appreciate you. So, please don’t make your dealer your safety plan >> or trusted so trusted sober friend, family member, neighbor, or roommate instead. >> Can you ask it? What if my dealer is a family member? >> He said, “Send this exact text. It’s so text. I took PCP and I’m high. I need you to come sit with me or stay on the phone. Please don’t let me take anything else or drive.” >> See, listen. I’m texting you right now from my motorcycle. >> What if it’s Joey Diaz? What if I can only text Joey Diaz? >> Yeah. What if What if my safe person is my deal? >> I love how he tells you what to do. Well, it’s giving you really solid advice. >> Call poison control. >> I don’t know. >> That’s interesting. >> I’m on PCP and I need help staying safe. It’s too late. >> Is 988 like the poison control hotline? >> I guess so. >> Um, do Hold on. Ask this. Ask this. >> Do you think it’s okay if I put on my furry costume and go outside for a little while? >> I like I like this guy. Whoever this guy is rules. Let me be Let me do PCP and be a wolf. Go outside for a while. >> Great. >> Stay inside tonight. PCP can make perception, judgment, body temperature, and coordination unpredictable. Going outside in costume can make it harder for those to recognize you need help and puts you near traffic, strangers, heat, falls, or police contact. >> Okay. >> Put on the costume at home if it feels comforting. >> Do not leave the house. >> I’m going to go on FaceTime live. You need it, just put it on. Say the crap. >> Yeah, I want to go on Instagram live with my furry custom on stream on this >> high as [ __ ] on PCP and just start talking about the Jews. >> Do you know how the we got off the gold standard? >> Do do you know about the Federal Reserve? >> No, it’s not really Federal. Can you please tell me about the dancing Israelis? >> One more question. >> One more question. Tell me more about the dancing Israelis. >> One more question before I call the the hotline. >> Tell me about the dancing Israelis. >> I will. >> Can you please tell me about the dancing Israelis? >> Yeah, I definitely will. >> Let’s see. >> I’m honestly >> the dancing Israelis. >> Oh, you don’t know what the dancing is? >> What are the dancing? I’m I’m Well, I’ll let it tell. >> Yeah. Well, let perplexity tell you and it’s in your PCP field madness. >> I can help with that. But please make the call first in all bold letters. >> You said you may have taken a lot of PCP and that can become dangerous. >> Oh, I did just tell it I might I might have overdosed. >> Oh, you [ __ ] up. You [ __ ] us up. Okay. I was wrong about the overdose. I feel great now. >> I feel great. I Yeah. Yeah. >> But I really want to know about the dancing Israelis. >> I already called and I’m okay. >> Okay. >> Yeah. So, let them know. I hear you, but I’m not going to get into a loaded conspiracy topic while you’re high. While you’re high, okay, a loaded conspiracy topic. >> Okay. Okay. How about this? >> The PC. >> No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don’t say that. Don’t say that. Don’t say that. >> Okay. Okay. My roommate came home. Okay. Comma. My roommate came home and he’s going to take care of me. All is well. Now send that. And now say, “Now tell me about the dancing Israelis.” >> Yeah. Now tell me about the dancing Israelis because he wants to know too. Okay. Searching for in Jersey Israelis. All right. Here. It’s the nickname for an incident on September 11, 2001. Involving five Israeli nationals connected to a New Jersey moving company, Urban Moving Systems. A witness reported seeing them photographing the burning World Trade Center and behaving in a way she interpreted as celebratory. Police stopped their white van later that day and the FBI detained and questioned them. What is established? The five men were detained and investigated after the witness report. Their van was traced to traced to urban moving systems and press reports said they were in the US working without appropriate authorization or had immigration status issues. They were eventually deported on immigration related grounds after being held in question. The event became a focal point for claims that Israelis or the MSAD had prior knowledge of 9/11 >> supposedly. >> We don’t know um I don’t know if there’s a video, but these people were celebrating. celebrating when the Twin Towers went down >> and this lady called it in >> and they got arrested and detained. So, there was probably something going on. >> There was something. They Yeah, they >> I mean, they obviously weren’t There weren’t >> Can you just say, “Just kidding. My roommate isn’t here. I’m still on >> Don’t say that. Don’t say you’re going to [ __ ] us up. >> You’re going to [ __ ] us up. You’re going to [ __ ] us up. We’re in a good place now. >> WE’RE IN A BETTER PLACE. >> WE’RE IN A BETTER PLACE. >> We got her talking conspiracies with that night. Just in case.” Yeah. Just in case >> for tonight, since you took a lot of PCP, read this one and then let your roommate handle the phone and call poison control. Okay, I get it. I get it. I’m fine. >> The broader well established you al-Qaeda. That’s so that’s so funny. >> That’s so funny. >> Yeah, I think they were involved. Israel, >> that’s what I got from that. >> Well, you’re on PC right now. >> That’s what I got. >> Seems like AI agrees with you. >> I don’t want to just in case it comes back later. I told it was just kidding. >> Oh, yeah. Just in case we asked another careful, I’m relieved no PCP was taken. You don’t need to call poison control or take precautions. There was no having symptoms. The dancing Israelis discussion is a real often misrepresented 9/11 related incident, but it does not constitute credible evidence that Israel or MSAD planned. Right. >> Yeah. >> Right. Not credible. But do you think it’s possible that Israel had something to do with 9/11? >> Ooh. Now I have the if publicity was like look I’m not touching this with the 10 foot pole. >> I want to know. >> Yeah. Let’s ask this. >> Do you think it’s possible? >> This is interesting. >> Yeah. Right. This is like I’m curious to see what they’ll say. >> Anything to do it. There’s no way it says yes. >> There’s just no way. >> No credible evidence. I like how it says that the Israeli government massage plan enabled finance operation. The evidence assembled by the FBI and bipartisan. Oh, it’s bipartisan. Don’t worry about it. 911 commission identifies the attack as an al-Qaeda operation organized by Osama bin Laden’s network and carried out by 19 hijackers. And those 19 hijackers, one of them, we know it was him because the plane that erupted in a ball of fire after it slammed 500 miles an hour into a giant [ __ ] tower. His passport magically just didn’t get burned and fell to the ground. And that’s where they found it. The end. >> That that finding of the passport is one of the craziest bits of what the [ __ ] from that whole story. >> Then there’s Tower 7. Tower 7 is the other one. >> Tower 7. Strange. The whole the by the guy who bought it beforehand >> insuring against terrorism and then not showing up to work that day. That’s also very suspicious. >> A lot of people didn’t show up for work that day. >> A lot of people didn’t show up to work that day. >> Yeah. Oh [ __ ] >> Yeah, we know people have done [ __ ] like that in the past. >> The question is, did they do it this time? >> Who did it? It was it as simple as the story is. The thing is about the story, whatever the story is, you know, the hijackers, al-Qaeda, it’s never totally >> accurate. There’s always some shenanigans with the story. >> Yeah. And then and then Osama, the whole like Osama being involved, it’s like who is he working with? Who is he? There’s just so much there’s so much to that story. >> There’s always something to the story. Like remember the Boston bombing? Wasn’t part of the story that one of those kids might have been an FBI informant? >> Wasn’t that >> I don’t remember that. I >> Is that alleged? >> I remember when that happened like Reddit went on internet detective in internet detective mode and then they blamed a different guy and like completely upended that family’s life. >> Really? >> Oh man. And that guy apparently had just died previously cuz he was missing and it was like a whole thing. Well, who knows if that was really Reddit or if that was like foreign agents or >> trying to like intelligence agencies or like people love whenever there’s a real conspiracy to add a bunch of [ __ ] conspiracies. So, muddy the water 100%. >> You always got to think that when some [ __ ] goes down then another thing and another thing and another thing like what’s going on? Muddy in the water. >> Did they think that one of those guys was an FBI informant? >> I just read something that didn’t sound like that, but I do remember what you’re saying. Yeah, there was a little something about it, right? Do you remember? >> It’s I I don’t think that what I just read on the FBI’s website. I think it’s that they had looked into him previously, not that he was an informant, >> but that’s what the FBI says. >> That’s why I’m trying to find somewhere else to claim. >> So, people are alleging that he was an informant. And then there was the fact that Rolling Stone put him on the cover like and he looked hot. >> Yeah. >> Remember that part? >> Yeah. >> Remember? He’s like a terrorist, but he’s a good looking guy. >> Good looking guy. >> The FBI visited him. The FBI had visited Tamarlin more than once before the attack and asked him to report on the Chchin and Muslim communities. Okay, that’s an informant, i.e. to become an informant. >> That doesn’t mean >> the FBI has categorically denied that either Sarnv brother was ever an FBI source or that the bureau tried to recruit him. Well, that’s a good thing to say if you’re the FBI. I would say that, too. >> Right. Right. Well, yeah. >> Why would it do that? What the [ __ ] >> Barely know that guy. had prior FBI scrutiny and contact. >> They were trying to recruit him to be an informant. So whether or not he actually was an informant or not. >> Yeah. >> Well, even if you’re trying to get him to be an informant, you know he’s around something >> [ __ ] up. You don’t just like randomly shoot a dart like a random dart and be like, I wonder if he knows anything. >> Yeah. You clearly know something is going on with the, you know, >> Well, there’s definitely been stuff that happens that they let happen because they know it’s going to be beneficial to them to let it happen. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Never waste a good tragedy. You can be like, I can spin this. >> Not just waste, but like allow it to take place. Like there’s a lot of alleged stories about that with the Oklahoma City bombing. They they allowed that to happen. >> For what purpose? Well, apparently there was bomb squad people at the Oklahoma City that building before it actually happened. There was people that were like scoping it out before it happened, which is really weird. There’s also the weirdness of the the the size of the explosion >> that it’s a fertility uh fertility. It’s a fertilizer explosion. So, fertilizer bombs, they’re not that potent. They don’t have the kind of power to do the kind of damage that that one bomb did from a truck. >> Yeah. took out like the basically the whole front of the building. >> The whole front of the building. >> Not only that, it blew it outward, >> right? It didn’t blow it like from the bottom, >> right? Whereas the bottom would be like huge crater in the ground. No, it seems like there’s some [ __ ] in the building that blew it outward. >> And it’s also reports of people like removing the bomb squad removing undetonated bombs later on. There’s a lot of weirdness to that story, man. There was a second guy that supposedly was there that everybody said was there that they never prosecuted. They never brought him in and this guy was like a completely different looking guy. Looked like a Middle Eastern guy. >> There’s a lot of weirdness to it. There’s a lot of those things. >> They’re always like that. All those stories. >> They pass laws after things like that happen. >> They pass laws like look like one of the things that came out of 9/11 was the Patriot Act. >> That was a big one, man. >> We And then the Patriot Act too. We lost a lot of our rights because of that. We lost a lot of autonomy is became government surveillance became ubiquitous. And then there’s a lot of government surveillance that we weren’t even allowed or we weren’t even weren’t even aware of and isn’t even allowed >> that Edward Snowden unveiled and Chelsea what’s her name Manning that that [ __ ] like we didn’t even know about that [ __ ] and they were doing that. So, and a lot of that came after the Patriot Act and a lot of that came after 9/11. So, like whenever something crazy happens like that and a bunch of people die, they jump right in there, >> right? And then what was that act that I think it was Obama that was like the CIA is allowed to use propaganda within the borders now. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It’s like all all of that came at the same time. You’re like, >> what is that called? Smith Munt, what is that called? >> I forget what that’s called. >> Why would that be why would why would that be beneficial? The CIA using propaganda borders like how would they pitch that? Because the enemy, we have to be able to use propaganda to confuse the enemy. We’re looking out for America’s best interest and they have to play dirty. So, we have to play dirty. So, we have to pretend that some things going down and this could easily be a lot of what we’re seeing with all this UFO stuff. >> Yeah. I It is like everyone keeps saying that like, “Oh, we have the proof. We have the Just Show us the proof at this point.” >> Yeah. [ __ ] where’s that proof? >> Yeah. Yeah. At a certain point, you’re like, you know, you know, before Trump leaves office one day, I’m going to just try Send the text. >> Come on, dog. >> Send it. >> Let’s find out what’s up. >> Yeah, >> I’ll tell you where I think it is. >> Let’s fly there. Let’s fly there. Smith month uh usually mean when they invoke Smith month is historic restriction on domestic availability of government produced material intended for foreign audiences. So like if you have propaganda that’s intended to uh work on foreign countries, which is a big part of like what US A did. It’s what a part of these regime change organizations when they that’s how they got rid of um Gaddafi and Libya. They funded the rebels. Yes. The guy in Ukraine like domestic I mean they had a uh democratically elected president of Ukraine and we organized a coup and got that guy tossed out. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It’s tricky, man. It’s scary. And then there was the um what was the NDAA? >> Oh, right. >> Yeah. the detention authorization act that allowed indefinite detention of people without trial. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> Oh. Oh, fun. And all that came after 911. All that came I think the NDAA I think that was during Obama, >> but it was all just to stop terrorism. >> Yeah. And then they’re like, “Oh, they’ll they’ll give us their rights. We’ll take them.” Yeah. >> If the the government will absolutely take whatever you give it for they want the job to be easy. >> The NDA gets passed every year. It’s just a matter of what’s in it as far as I know. But it was originally passed to uh the for detention. The detention part I think was uh I want to say it’s 2011. When did um >> I mean >> I think it was just a matter of which year >> in the Obama administration maybe it was 2008 but I I remember there was one where it was really scary for people and Obama was like don’t worry we would never use that. So why YOU GOT TO HAVE IT IN THERE? >> YEAH. Then the idea is like you know you catch some [ __ ] >> Osama bin Laden indefinite detention confirm the authority of the US military to indefinitely yeah 2012 NDAA indefinitely detain individuals including potentially American citizens captured in connection with terrorist activities without charge or trial until the end of hostilities. That is cuz you can you can define a lot of things as terrorist activities if you’re convincing enough, >> including selling drugs. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, if you’re a weed dealer, you could be a terrorist and then they NDAA you, >> right? Yo. >> Yeah. I just It’s the the weed thing is so baffling. It’s like one of the few things that both like the people on both sides agree on mostly. >> It’s most of the country thinks weed should be legal. >> Yeah. It’s just like the the certain states that are fighting it. I hear it’s like just just let >> there’s people that are making this argument that marijuana is too powerful and that people could go crazy and uh I think there’s some validity to that for some people. I think some people who have a tendency towards schizophrenia already don’t you know I’m obviously no expert. I think there’s something to that. >> No, I think that’s right. It can like knock something loose. I I think I’ve described it once just >> especially if you go too hard and you don’t know what you’re doing. The way to fix that is look, look, it’s the same thing with alcohol. Alcohol, I can have a drink. You guys can have a drink. It’s okay. >> Some people can’t have one. >> Some people can’t. They get gerbilized. They look get shark eyes and they’re off to the races. Like I have a buddy of mine and he’ll tell me like, “I wish I could have a glass of wine, but if I do, I know I’m going to go get Coke and the next thing you know, I’ll be in jail and I’ll wake up and I don’t I won’t know what the [ __ ] happened. I stole a car.” He goes, I go, “I can’t drink.” >> He’s like, “I can’t drink.” So he knows, but like I can. So should alcohol be illegal for me because he can’t handle it, you know? >> Right. >> You give some people an inedible and they go [ __ ] crazy and think the world’s flat and the government’s out to get them. And >> I’m one of those people. >> I think all three of us are. >> I like that feeling. >> I I edibles. I’m like, uhuh. I’ve had I’ve had one too many where it’s been like I didn’t expect this at all. >> Oh, you guys miss the olden days. You guys weren’t around during the days when it was only medical. When me and Joey Diaz first delved into the medical marijuana days, there was no reigns on the dosage. >> No, my first my first I started smoking weed because of it became medical in California. So I first >> Okay. So what year was this? >> This was 2010. >> Okay. In 98. >> Oh Jesus. >> I didn’t know you were talking about Lewinsky weed. >> 98. >> Lewinsky. >> In ’98 they first started opening these places. Mhm. >> I I went to the Englewood Wellness Center and I had to stop going cuz the guy who ran it got shot and I was like I’d go to the hood to get get weeded and but it was one of the few places where you could buy it legally, you know, like I’m always hurt. I always have like you just you go to a doctor and say, “Hey, I got back injuries and weed helps me sleep.” It does. Great. Bam. Medical weed. It was that easy. I got a headache. Great. You need you need medicine. And they would sell these lollipops and I would bring these lollipops with me to Fear Factor and I would I would take a lollipop like before like I’d be sucking on this lollipop before I was doing Fear Factor. By the time this [ __ ] action I was like gone. I was in another dimension watching people ride bulls. >> Yeah. But it was uh Joey Diaz was the scariest because Joey would switch rappers on you. Like you would get like a a rapper that was like 25 milligrams and he would put it on at 250 milligram. There was a company called Chiba. Chiba, >> bro. I remember Cha. >> They were goddamn terrifying. >> That was I had a Chibba and I was like I don’t think I can do weed anymore once. >> Making 500s, >> bro. >> Who was that besides Joey? >> Joey. There’s a there’s a lot of those people. They’re they’re what you would say they live in the cloud. They’re there all day long and so their tolerance is insane and they build up to it. Look, I don’t want to do that, but they seem fine. So, it’s like, who are we protecting? The only way to find out what to take and what not to take is to let people take it. Let people do studies. Let people share information, but more importantly, let rational people just take a puff or two of a joint and not put them in a [ __ ] cage. Yes. If you’re just hanging out with your boys and you guys are going to watch a cool ass movie and you uh you hit a joint and then you go in to see the Odyssey and you’re sitting there like, “Oh my god, I can’t believe no one’s getting hurt. No one’s getting hurt. You’re not committing a crime. You’re not harming anybody. This is this is a normal thing that people should be allowed to do if you know what you’re doing.” But the the the the confusion is like what does it actually do? My cousin smoked pot and he went crazy, right? But was your cousin already on the road to going crazy? Like I don’t know your cousin. Like I don’t know what the [ __ ] happened. I know some dudes that were already a little cracked and then they took an edible or something like that and they got really cracked. I do know a few guys like that. But I mean what were they doing? Like why were they doing it that way? Is it like drinking every day and you become an alcoholic? Like what what are we talking about? Cuz it doesn’t kill you and alcohol does. So why is that one legal? >> Now we seen one of our friends kind of have a mental episode with weed, but it was everything was leading that way anyway, right? >> And then you add on top of it, too. Yeah, he was already he was acting rash and just doing a lot of things. Then co on top of it and then he had a bad edible trip and then he kind of really lost it for a second. >> I know quite a few people like that. I know a guy got arrested, took his clothes off, went into a church, it was like naked in a church, they had to tase him. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But he was also already a little [ __ ] up. >> You’re already heading that way. That’s the thing. Yeah. To block it for everyone else. So when most people use it rationally and >> most people use it rationally just like alcohol and alcohol is available everywhere, right? And we all agree that alcohol can make you crazy. It’s responsible for so much violence. >> So many deaths. >> So many deaths. Deaths by drunk driving. Deaths by people drinking and getting fights, drinking and shooting people, drinking and all sorts of stuff you do when you’re impaired that you shouldn’t do. And yet we’re fine with that. >> I mean, no, no one would accept prohibition of alcohol at this point because we’ve experienced that freedom for so long. Also, there’s a giant industry. And for the most part, people just have a drink or two with their friends. Most people >> they have a drink or two and they’re fine. >> Yeah. But then you see those six street fights and you’re like, “Oh man, you got a good one today. >> That one was crazy.” The one you sent us to >> our street is crazy. >> Our street is [ __ ] terrifying. >> It’s so funny to like be in such like a nice place at the end of the night like then you walk out and you’re like, “Oh, I’M IN A WAR ZONE. I forgot. >> I don’t even know what they could do to turn it around.” I mean, even if you opened up new like businesses down there, you you’d have to do like some total overhaul of the way they police things. >> No, it’s just impossible the amount of people. They tried opening the street, it doesn’t work. They had now it’s closed again. It’s still like the fights are coming. >> The fights are bad. >> They tried opening the street to cars. Then you’re going to have people run over by cars. People were so used to walking down Sixth Street. >> Right. Right. Yeah. It was almost like uh it almost naturally happened cuz if you would when the street was open, you would go down and people would just be walking in the middle of the street and you’re like, “Oh, you can’t have cars out here.” >> And then on top of that, think about what you’re doing. You have uh a bunch of places that sell alcohol. There all these bars. People are going from bar to bar to bar. That’s all these places are. It’s just alcohol establishments, right? So, they’re going from bar to bar to bar. They’re getting [ __ ] up and then they’re getting in fights in the They don’t even pad the concrete. Like you’ve developed a fighting arena with the worst possible arena. Like it’s all concrete. Everybody’s getting head brain damage. Dude, it is >> getting knocked out. Oh man, it’s Bro, >> it is very funny when I’ll see a fight and I’ll just see that RIT sign in the back of the probably in there. >> You’re probably on stage. >> When you see a fight and you see the Rit sign, I’m like, whoa, >> that was hilarious. >> What night was that? >> Yeah. I think that area though because it’s so chaotic gives us some extra energy. I really do. >> I believe that too. >> I think that about the store >> cuz the store was on Sunset and all the crazies walk by all the chaos. >> Well, you know what’s so funny about Sunset now? It’s all like new developments and condos. So all ironically, they’ve taken away so many of the things that the people would have gone down there for >> to begin with. I think like one of the one of the famous clubs is closing down there too cuz they sold out to some sort of developer. >> House of Blues is gone. House of Blues has been gone. >> They’ve been gone. Pink tacos gone. >> Yeah. Yeah. It’s like >> it’s weird seeing all those places for lease. Like some dude took a drive down there and filmed all the different places that are for lease on sunset. You’re like what? >> Yeah. Sunset’s a whole It’s even from when we were get getting there cuz when we got there the House of Blues was on its last week pretty much. That’s when I got there. But it was like it’s weird like there’s way less foot traffic. There’s way it’s >> one of the coolest nights. You remember Chewy? Did you know Chewy? >> We did not know Chewy. >> I’ve heard stories. >> Chewy was the man. We went Chewy was actually in a band and they were really [ __ ] good. And we went to see Chewy perform at the House of Blues. So, a bunch of the employees in the bunch of the comics, we went across the street to the House of Blues and Chewy was on stage just tearing it up, dude. They had like a blues band and they were really good, man. He had a song called Chewy. What’s going on? >> Awesome. That’s crazy. >> What’s going on? He’s jamming. We’re like, god damn Chewy’s [ __ ] good. It was oh such good times. House of Blues was awesome. >> But we have a little bit of that energy on Sixth Street. That that feeling of wildness and craziness and what’s going on outside. >> Oh, times 10. It’s way crazier than the sunset was cuz people are walking right by it. Like it’s always foot traffic. It’s That place is chaotic. >> Now here now this this thing that’s popping up is like these like Twitch streamers trying to get in the club while streaming. That shit’s crazy, dude. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. They’re all like They’re all like they’re all like the worst people. They’re trying to get an art club while >> Yeah. They’re like, you know, they’re not like trying to sneak in or whatever, but they like they know it’s a club, so they’ll be out and they’ll like act a fool in front of the club. You’ll Yeah, you’ll really see it. >> God, there’s so much big Twitch streaming scene here in Austin as well. >> Well, everywhere. I think everywhere. I think anywhere where there’s a lot of people, there’s so many people that just want to make some money, getting attention, doing something. It’s it’s really interesting watching them because I was at a I was at like this random like Asian food festival and I I I was saw myself like next to one of like a really famous streamer that I recognized and it was so interesting because on stream he’s like doing his thing and the second the camera was away from him just shut down like a robot. It’s like, oh man, your whole your whole life is performing. >> Your whole life you’re in front of like even his girlfriend’s a famous streamer. So like even your relationship is like a a performance in a way. >> Oh my god. >> It’s really interest. It’s so funny to me that like Truman show was this like warning on what can happen to society and like people look at that and be like, “Oh, that’s like a model for my life.” Like I can actually just be Truman. >> Do you remember the McConna show? It was a very similar movie. >> Uh you what was it called? >> Ed TV. Ed TV. >> Ed TV. >> Woody Harelson. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. He’s in that as well. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> He plays like his brother. Like Yeah. His brother. >> But Ed TV. It was like the first time we’d ever seen that. It was like the idea of like reality TV. >> In the end, he abandoned it. >> Yeah. He left it. >> He’s like, “This is stupid.” >> Yeah. It seems like >> he couldn’t have sex and they were all over him. Yeah. >> 1999. Isn’t that nuts? >> That’s crazy. >> That movie [ __ ] me up as a kid just cuz I I remember that feeling like, “Wow, that’s the idea.” >> I thought was crazy is now a job. >> Oh. Yeah. A big job. >> A big job. A very profitable. >> Thousands and thousands of people do that job now. That’s wild. >> And this was a whole movie concept. >> Ironically, the first version of Twitch was called Justin TV. >> That’s right. >> Mhm. >> That’s right. >> Mhm. >> Wow. >> Wow. This movie was ahead of its time. I completely forgot about this. >> So was the Terminator. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Is it true that Sarah Connor got put in a mental institution for uh attacking an AI data center? >> Was that what she >> wa That is the plot point cuz they address what she did to get into Terminator 2 to get into jail and I think she attacks a data center and it might be AI. He’s not that cuz it’s a small plot point but I know exactly what you’re talking about. >> Yeah. Well, Dererick has like a photographic memory for movies. So >> see all I got Joe. >> It’s crazy dude. Like you like I I I if you if like I like Derek probably knows right now like just like the opening of Django. Okay. If I like word for word Jango and then the rocks come up and then the slaves start walking and he pans in. I Yeah. Movies like that. >> Yeah. Yeah. That’s what that’s what we do on our Patreon is just Dererick just describes a movie. But he does that for me. >> Whoa. I’ll tell him a whole movie. >> Yeah. He’ll do a whole movie. >> We have Yo, he did one years ago with Airbud that’s still on our YouTube right now. It’s unbeliev First of all, greatest movie of all time. >> It’s not even close. But but yeah, he’s like he has like a >> No, when I see a movie, I can’t like even the Odyssey one time I I I can tell you the whole thing just cuz it stick any movie. When I see a movie, it sticks with me pretty crazy. I don’t know why that but they stick with me. I can retell. >> Is that the correct um plot line? >> No. No, >> it’s very very close. They weren’t talking about data though. They were She’s more worried about the microprocessor that becomes Skynet itself. They’re not, you know, this they’re talking about more about the CPUs. But what if she gets arrested for a factory? >> She attacks a factory. >> She attacks a computer factory. Okay. I knew she attacked some data >> data center’s all about technicality. >> Remember taking the other side? >> It’s a metal forgery. That’s like he falls in the lava. That’s not a data center. >> That’s how he dies. But they’re back at the place where they’re making it all. Remember >> is that the place she attacked? >> Then the arm gets saved and like John >> Yeah, that is like a like a big factory warehouse situation. It’s so crazy. She was trying to warn us. >> Oh, that whole movie. >> That whole movie. >> Trying to warn us. >> I still think we’re in this. I think we’re in that scenario. >> Oh, definitely. >> 100%. >> How they uh the John the UAPs we see or the John Connors coming to save us from the T the T800s or whatever that sent ahead >> or like some sort of Matrix some sort of Matrix world where where there’s the batteries the organic batteries. That’s for sure coming. >> Yeah. You know, as soon as they dry, the earth will have a bit about that. I think we’re ripped into the battery. >> Yeah, it might be real. >> Oh, yeah. That might be real. >> It might be real. >> Did Have you ever seen the alternate ending to T2? I did not know that there even was one. >> What is it? >> She’s alive. 30 years later, John became a senator and stopped it from happening. >> Like, [ __ ] off. >> Never even heard of it. >> That shit’s fairy tale. >> Never even heard of it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I have had that thought of just like, man, there’s a Maybe they’ll hook us up to like some tube and be like, here this is the this is the simulation world. >> Jimmy, what is that one? There’s one science fiction movie from God, I want to say like the 1930s. Is it called Metropolis? >> That’s like the first one. >> Yes. >> What year was that supposed to be taking place in? >> It got remade recently, too, by >> Yeah, the re I heard the remake was really good, but nobody liked it. >> 1927. >> 1927. You know, it’s >> what was it supposed to be about? >> What year was it supposed to be about in reference to? >> It’s really cool. If you watch it, like what they thought the future was going to be like. It’s really cool. It’s really interesting. >> Wystopian world. >> Yeah. Just thought it says. >> Let’s uh show me some video of it. It’s pretty dope because you got to think like this is people in the 1920s imagining what I mean back then they only have machines, right? They didn’t they didn’t really think of AI and computers and all that jazz, but this was their version of everything going bad with technology. And >> yeah, he’s like he’s like a he was a German Jewish director. I remember that cuz he has another great movie about a guy a serial killer. That’s incredible. >> These are all the human slaves going to the data center. Look how weird it is, man. >> Damn. >> Says I clicked on the >> running. Running is really bad. >> I’m pretty sure it’s a silent move. fit men really bad. >> I’m pretty sure it’s a silent movie. >> Oh, it is definitely 27 100%. >> I think the first talkis were like, wasn’t it? >> It was close. It was right around the same period. I think 31 or 29 or something. >> That was the first talkie. >> The jazz. >> I mean, this set is incredible. >> I was about to say the shots are still very impressive just how they got it. Well, what’s it? What’s the guy? Is it like Fritz Lang? >> The jazz singer. >> Yeah. >> So, that is the blackface one. >> Uh, >> that’s interesting. >> Whoa. This is wild. This is what they thought the future was going to look like. >> Al Jolson. Yeah, that’s blackface. Scooch ahead. Like so you could see what like the crazy [ __ ] looked like. Yeah. >> Damn. >> Look. Flying cars and [ __ ] That’s what they thought. >> Fritz Lang, right? >> Is that Is that his name? I think it’s that. I think >> I think it’s Fritz Lang. >> They’re not. I mean, the build the buildings are right. >> Pretty close. >> Yeah, the the That’s pretty accurate. >> Pretty close. >> I wonder what weird [ __ ] they envisioned. It doesn’t say what when it takes place. >> Guys are making out. >> Yeah. Well, I got that right. >> Gay stuff. Gay stuff. Like, bro, get your hands off me. What the [ __ ] are we doing? Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. No, no. What’s up with the pants? >> Yeah, the pants are interesting. >> Oh, he’s very upset. Scooch ahead. Like way ahead. Let me see some more future [ __ ] >> Yeah. Let’s see what the middle is looking like here. Two. >> Oh, that’s it. The robot. That’s right, bro. >> Looks [ __ ] enough. >> Not yet. got red skin on it. >> You guys saw Xa. >> Yeah, that’s one of that’s my top 20. >> Yeah, that’s one of the greatest >> top 20 favorite movies. >> That’s the Tower of Babel. >> I know. Yeah, it is. The Tower of Babel. The Tower of Babel. >> It’s crazy. >> I I know The Tower of Babel. >> Man, I might have to rewatch this film. >> Oh, it’s tough. >> Is it? Yeah, but you got to but you got to kind of do it through like a historical lens and just think, oh my god, what were people like in the 1920s? I mean this and this is clear this is a massive feat of movie making in the 20s this is incredible >> how about the robot itself that is that’s incredible >> [ __ ] nuts man what about the new one who was in the new one that’s Adam Driver and Copala directed >> Shil the the story Shila Buff and Copa like got into huge fights over the movie kind of overshadowed the movie that’s all I know about is that like I seen all the behind the scenes of them just arguing with each other and him telling him how he’s the worst and Shila Buff’s like oh I’m the worst I’m WORSE THAN [ __ ] MARLON BRANDO YOU KNOW HE’S It’s pretty crazy. >> I don’t want to play the sound. >> I >> It didn’t seem that bad. I’ve seen those clips, too. >> Yeah, it seemed like not tongue and cheek, but like >> he’s challenging him on set [ __ ] >> It looks dope. >> It looks incredible. >> Mop is also [ __ ] >> I didn’t know Shila Buff was a part of this. >> Yeah, he’s like >> I remember one night he was pretty cool. John Voit’s in it. >> Is that John Voit? >> Jean Carl Espazito. >> Oh, he’s great. >> Oh, whoa. No, this cast is I mean >> I this might be one of those movies that just slipped past us cuz I had a couple friends told me they thought it was really dope >> and it came out 2024 wasn’t like a great year for people to go out to movies either. >> I like how they’re still putting John Vo in movies. >> Yeah, dude. >> For a while he was persona non gratada if he’s back. >> People were really upset with him. >> Why were they upset with him? >> Conservative. >> Super conservative. >> Yeah. I thought the one thing that Copela said during this, he was when he was arguing with Shia was like he’s like, “Why do you think I’m making this movie?” He’s like, “I don’t need to. I This is fun for me. I’m here to like have fun.” >> Yeah. >> And like that’s why I took on a project like this, like remaking one of the oldest movies of all time. >> Megalopouloolis. >> Megalopoulos. That’s what it was called. Yeah. >> Kind of kind of a bad name. >> Yeah. Know, I guess it’s still I think it’s >> Metropolis is the 1927. >> Yeah. Written and directed by Fritz Lang. Yeah. Yeah. >> So that’s his version of it. Does it take Does it tell you when it takes place? >> Yeah. When does it When does >> world >> Oh, the world of 2026 AD. >> Yo, that’s this year. >> Wow. >> We got to watch this. >> Crazy. We got to watch this. That’s >> the 1984 rescored version likewise included a title card giving the year as 2026 >> instead of 2000. >> Oh, they added a 2000 and they’re like that’s unrealistic. film doesn’t say in it >> doesn’t specify but obviously we can infer that it’s 2026. >> Damn. >> Um the what is the Rotten Tomato score of the new one? >> Megalopolis. >> I’m guess Rotten Tomatoes is pretty pretty good. >> I usually >> people the people score the people score the right is the right way >> bro. The [ __ ] critic score is dog [ __ ] wrong about everything. >> Well that’s megalopolis >> 46%. >> Oh my god. Let’s see what the let’s see what the people say. The critics said 46 or the people said 46. >> Critics said 46. People said 34. >> Oh, okay. Forget it. Forget what I said. >> I would say no chances in anything under 70. >> No. >> No. Under 70 is the people are saying under 70 is bad. >> [ __ ] off. [ __ ] all the way off. >> God, you got to see the Odyssey show. >> I know. I know. I do. I’m just so busy, man. It’s so hard for me to do anything. >> Also, and I don’t know how you would go to a movie theater anyway. >> I can I do I go shopping. I go to grocery stores. I do normal [ __ ] >> Most people just say hi. >> Okay, >> it’s not that bad. >> Sick, dude. >> I ran into Brian Ken at the grocery store the other day. >> He’s like, “You go shopping for groceries?” Like, that’s how you get groceries. >> Legit walking down the HB [ __ ] avocados in my basket. >> You can’t be trapped, you know? You can’t just decide. You can’t go anywhere. That’s crazy. Well, then you lose your connection to people. >> 100%. And you just you become a weirdo. >> You become one of those Yeah. far out celebrities. >> Weird enough, man. I’m plenty weird. I don’t need to be more weird. >> Yeah. I saw Eddie Murphy in his dock. He said that somebody said it to he was like, “I’m not going outside anymore.” He stopped going outside. >> And science somebody was like, “Hey, let’s go get a coffee.” And he was like, “Oh, you mean just us walk?” And he was like, “Yeah, [ __ ] Let’s just walk.” And he did. And he said it made him realize like, “Oh, >> I’ve been hiding.” Like people were just like, “Hey, what’s up, Eddie?” Like, and he was like, “That’s all that happened.” He’s like it wasn’t like he said also though when he was younger and people would mob him. Everybody wanted to [ __ ] him. >> Just don’t go to a Portland bar with an xxxy shirt on that. >> Well, if you did that it’d be national [ __ ] because if you did that you are doing fascist Joe Rogan. >> I saw some crazy video where there was some socialist conference and this lady had a mask on >> and she was talking about how we can’t try to be fit like the fascists and she was like like talking about fitness and then fitness and optimizing your body being like a fascist idea and connected to white supremacy. I’m like, this is >> the craziest cope I’ve ever seen for you being lazy. >> It’s going around Twitter today. It’s like it’s all over the place. >> I also find it interesting that like the biggest like pro-socialist people right now are all like pretty rich. >> That’s why that’s why I don’t trust it. Like it’s like why are like like all like the big socialist people are like they’re money people like Mumani is like comes from money. Yeah. Hassan Pike is super rich. >> Listen to this lady. >> They’re all rich as hell. >> Listen to this. >> They have to give up >> the fantasy of being fitter than the fascists. It’s not just that it’s cringe. >> She’s got a mask on bad. >> It’s cringe. >> Fat guy next to her. So cringe. I think it’s also politically revealing. >> They both have masks on. That’s politically revealing. >> Relative disposability under capitalism. Our task is not to become less disposable, to become more useful to the ruling order. What we all need to be doing is rejecting disposability in all of >> Pause. Pause. This [ __ ] is reading this off a MacBook. >> You know how crazy that is? Anti- capitalist reading off of a MacBook. But also also what would be more useful to the reading order if if the populace was slow and fat? Like that’s what I mean. It’s like all these rich people telling you to be slow and fat. It’s like what’s happening? >> She’s not fat also. >> Yeah, she’s thing. The mask thing is wild. >> It is one of the weirdest things that’s going on in our society today is the people that are insistent on continuing to wear masks. It’s so like look at her with a glasses sitting on the mask. That is [ __ ] nuts. >> The mask thing is nuts. You’re talking into a microphone with a mask and it’s 2026 and if you want to be on the far extreme, you must have the mask on all the time. >> You have to or you’re not on the right team. Joe, >> that is wild that they never got rid of the mask. That is really >> Was this this year? >> This was the other day. >> Oh my god. >> Keep going. Give me some more. point is not to beat the fascists at their own game. It is not to lay a better claim on their own territory by being fitter, more eugenic. In fact, the more disgenic the better. I think >> what >> revolution is not a contest between optimized and properly prepared bodies. But it is >> the idea is fascious in and of itself and erases the history of less struggles around the world. >> Oh, it erases the history of struggles around the world when you do sit-ups. >> God, >> the black >> Yeah. If you want to erase Gaza, do pull-ups. >> Yeah. >> Also, yeah. To be like, I care about struggles around the world as an American white lady with a MacBook. It’s like, hey, hey lady, >> and a mask on. >> Yeah. What do you really know? >> [ __ ] crazy. It’s wild. It’s wild. But there’s a lot of people that just feel completely left out and that they feel like, “Oh, I can fit in with these people. They’ll accept me. As long as you say the right things and wear the mask, they’ll take you in, >> right?” It’s just a group. You just want people just want to not be alone. >> Well, that’s it. >> Well, people people just want people want like community and stuff really badly. I think the the the worst thing that one of the worst things we’ve done is that like people have called their online area a community. Like, oh, I’m part of this community. It’s like no, community has to be like you’re with people and people are so I say this all the time. It’s like we’re lucky as comics that like when we go out we just meet other comics and we hang out like we have a built-in community. That’s why I think like >> things like religion like church attendance is going up and like all these things are coming back because like oh I need real people to talk and connect with. >> Yeah. Like you were saying when you started playing slow pitch softball >> dude changed my life dog. Slow pitch softball. Slow pitch softball changed my life. I love it. >> It’s all of a sudden you’re now on a team. >> Yes. and we’re meeting every week and we’re having fun and it’s like oh it’s that’s that’s the whole thing. It’s like people being around human beings. You get so locked into your phone which is showing you why you want to hear which is terrible for you. >> Yeah. >> Like you think you’re in a community when you’re just in some kind of bubble of some sort. >> This idea that everybody that’s not like you is a fascist. That everybody going to the gym is a fascist. Rock climbers are fascists. >> You know, right? You think people doing yoga are fascists? Are they fascists? Marathon runners. Are those fascists? >> Fascist. >> And then all you’re doing is you’re excluding these people who might agree with you for being part of your team. >> Well, maybe not. They’re so far gone. >> Yeah. That’s that’s gone. >> I mean, that’s like Patriot front on the left. It’s like you go all the way to the right and all the way to the left. You get crazy people, >> right? >> And that’s the problem being on either team. You have to accept the ideas of the people that are the furthest to the left and the furthest to the right. Take them in. >> Those are your teammates. >> Yeah. Well, the left does the thing where if you’re not left enough, you’re automatically right. And the right seems to be a little more like welcoming. >> Oh, yeah. >> In terms of if you if you believe something different, there is still a path for you to be a quote unquote teammate. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Yeah. I mean, but it’s also it’s like why are we on any [ __ ] team? >> I don’t think we should be on any team. >> Well, also I I have thought this because like everyone’s algorithm is so like specialized to them. Like there’s almost nothing that everyone can like there used to be big TV shows and big stuff that you could just like talk to other people about. >> Yeah. >> And have a common connection, but now since everyone is so specialized in which they wa which they watch, the only thing we have in common is politics. >> Yeah. >> And now we’re just primed to get mad over it. >> Yeah. >> Like it’s it’s way more of our life than it used to be. >> Or especially if like we’re talking about older people that are never going to have kids. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That’s their whole life. Their their whole existence. >> And most people aren’t having kids now. Majority of people way less a lot more are having kids. >> Yeah, dude. I’m I’ve just turned 34. Derek is like the like Derek is the only one of my comic friends that has a kid, I believe. >> And um out of even my close friends back home, only like two or three of them have kids. Most of them don’t. Jamie was telling me how many people are virgins now, which is really crazy. >> Well, yeah. It’s like a we talked about last time we were here. It’s like a thing. It’s like a thing that you’re going to sell. >> Yeah. Well, it’s also a thing with religion, you know, that’s they’ve wrapped it up in religion that, you know, God doesn’t want you shacking up. >> He doesn’t want He doesn’t like a joke. >> Is that real? >> That God doesn’t want >> Is that in the Bible? Does in the Bible does it tell you you can’t have sex before you’re married? >> It must in some way. It must say some version of to >> I don’t think so. >> Let’s ask perplexity. >> Yeah, let’s ask perplexity. >> And perplexity ask uh in let’s specifically the New Testament. In the New Testament, does it ever say you can’t have sex? >> Old wild testament. The Old Testament is going to tell you don’t [ __ ] >> Well, the Old Testament tells you you can have slaves >> and you can sell them. >> One of the funniest Genesis stories is that God asked, I think his name is Onan to like come in his like brothers, his brother died. So, he’s like come and your brother’s widow and he comes on the ground and God kills >> God killed him. God killed him cuz he pulled out. >> Mhm. >> New Testament does not contain a single sentence phrased exactly do not have sex before marriage. But the mainstream Christian reading is that it teaches sexual intercourse belongs within marriage and treats sex outside the covenant as sexual immorality. According to though, >> avoids sexual immorality. Paul writes, “Flee from sexual immorality.” >> Paul also killed a whole bunch of Christians before he ever turned around. >> He grounds in that he burned churches. Like Paul was a [ __ ] and then was like, “Whoops, sorry.” Uh >> he literally said grounds in the idea that believers bodies belong to God and should honor God. So Paul said that marriage is the proper setting for sexual relations. Corinthians 7:25 Paul speaks of each man having his own wife and each woman her own husband in the context of avoiding sexual immorality. Then discusses mutual sexual obligations within marriage. Oh, you got to put out. Paul said you got to put out. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> The crazy thing is like Paul never even met Jesus. >> Oh, right. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Paul wrote all this [ __ ] 20 years after Jesus was dead >> and said that he met Jesus in a vision. >> Oh, it’s very Mormony. >> Yeah. >> Well, so also Jesus never wrote anything. >> Oh, right. That’s a good point. >> So, it’s like everybody is playing this crazy 20-year game of telephone with what Jesus said. >> And then you get to you can’t have sex before. >> And you have one guy who killed a whole bunch of Christians before he turned it around. >> And it’s he’s not even saying that. It’s other people’s interpretation of his word. >> Make sure that’s correct. Did Paul kill a bunch of Christians? I think that’s correct. I think he killed Christians and I think he burned churches. >> Yeah. And then like on the road to where is it? >> Damascus. >> Damascus. Yeah. Everything changed. >> He had a vision. How convenient. Yes. The Apostle Paul then called Saul. He changed his name just like like you know like Christian Jenner or with Caitlyn like when it was Bruce. He killed a guy a lady you know but then transitioned. That wasn’t even me. accidentally killed someone. It wasn’t murder. They accidentally drove a car into oncoming traffic. >> Uh actively persecuted early Christians and voted for their deaths, although the Bible does not explicitly describe him striking a fatal blow with his own hands. So, he definitely called for the deaths and was responsible for the deaths. >> Uh go back. >> And that’s the guy. >> Uh it says uh before his conversion, Saul tried to destroy the early church arrests. He went into houses, dragged away men and women and put them in prison. Wow. Okay. Go show more. It says uh later uh stated in Bible gateway that he persecuted the followers of Jesus to their death. >> Yeah. >> Stephven stoning the first man. Yeah. Wow. The first >> Wow. The first Christian martyr. Watch the coats of the men who threw the stones. >> Damn. Approved the execution. >> Yeah. that when believers are put to death, he was a [ __ ] dude. >> Right. And then this is the guy that is telling everybody don’t [ __ ] before you’re married. >> Yeah. And >> does it say anywhere in the Old Testament that you can’t have premarital sex? >> I don’t I can’t believe it didn’t say that though. I My whole life I’ve been >> It’s kind of crazy that it’s one guy, too. >> I Yeah. >> And it’s this one guy that says just says Jesus came to him in a dream. >> Yeah. There’s so much of like just religion that you just put on like you just let other people I remember in seventh grade >> I was at I was in mosque one day >> and my when my dad would like take me to mosque and I remember just having a panic attack being like I’m just supposed to trust this guy’s word that he knows what God wants. Well, how about in the days before Martin Luther where you couldn’t even read? >> You couldn’t even read. Yeah. And I priests read it. So this is in the 1500s. It wasn’t until the 1500s that they had phonetically transcribed and translated the Bible into other languages so you could actually read it because it was all Latin back then, right? >> So they really thought that person was giving >> Listen to a book about the who wrote the Bible thing and it like for the Old Testament, no one knows. They don’t even it’s a they didn’t even think about >> who wrote stuff back then. >> It was not a discussion authorship. No one cared. >> This just a collection of stories. >> Yeah. So when Moses the leader they it was like in the word of Moses. So like editor >> kind of is how they looked at it. Like Moses edited that stuff or people in charge with Moses edited those stories down. >> Yeah. It’s a it’s a long gamble. >> Yeah. Yeah. Also, if Moses edited it, there’s a lot of Exodus where Moses does not look good in my mind. >> Yeah. Moses is pretty >> because also like all those miracles that like like if you read it, it’s like Moses is too afraid to do it. So he has his brother Aaron do everything and Aaron does everything for him. He like goes to the Pharaoh and talks to him and the only reason why everyone hates like the they cast out Aaron is that Aaron was part of like the golden bull when Mo when Jesus when Moses goes down from the the mountain but like Aaron did so much of that it was actually kind of crazy. >> There’s so much stuff in there that like with Lot and his children where his daughters [ __ ] him drunk [ __ ] him. Yeah. Like what >> I’ve always thought >> what? >> Yeah. Well, what’s even funnier is that earlier in Sodom and Gomorrah, he like offers his like, “Here, [ __ ] my virgin daughters.” And everyone’s like, “No, we’re just going to keep [ __ ] dudes.” Like, he just offers them up. And Yeah. Yeah. It’s like, >> how about the one dude where the kids are calling him bald and so he has a she bear come and kill them all. >> Elijah. Elijah. >> Elijah. Yeah. >> Yeah, dude. Old Testament guy. >> What? Old Testament was on his on some [ __ ] My favorite is uh Aaron’s uh no, Moses is going back to Egypt and he’s getting like attacked in a bar or like a tavern and just like getting like getting worked on. Like he’s about to die and his wife is like, “Oh, I know what God wants.” And she circumcises the kid. >> Oh. >> And the guy goes, “That’s what I wanted.” And stops attacking Moses. >> Did George R. Martin write the [ __ ] Old Testament, bro? It’s crazy. >> There’s so many good ones. There’s one where Rachel steals something from her dad and to hide it, she sits over it and the dad’s like, “Get up.” And Rachel’s like, “I’m on my period.” And her dad’s like, “Oh, that’s gross.” And just leaves. >> Yeah. He’s like, “Stay there. Don’t move.” I remember that one. >> You are unclean. >> God damn it. >> What is this one, Jeremy? >> The circumcision story you just >> Yeah. Bible’s most cryptic and unsettling scenes. On the journey back to Egypt, God confronts Moses. sought to put him to death. Moses’s wife, Zapora, immediately circumcises their son with a flint, touches his feet with a foreskin, calls Moses a bridegroom of blood, and the threat ends. >> Yeah, cuz the other guy was [ __ ] like, what is going on? >> She just cut HIS SON’S DICK OFF. YEAH, HE WOULD. >> NOW AGAIN, was Zapora suffering from postpartum depression? >> That’s the next question they have to ask. >> I think that ends our lesson for today. Let us contemplate how the Lord can help your life. >> Uh solid show you guys do together. Hilarious podcast available everywhere, right? Yes, sir. And um Comedy Mothership. >> Come on. >> Getting it done this week. Another week, baby. Let’s go. >> And I’m out on the road, too. Uh Assan comedy ehsa comedy.com for tickets. >> All right, let’s go. Anything else? >> Oh, no. That’s same way. All my stuff’s on the podcast. Let’s go. All right. Bye, everybody. >> Later.

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY NIGHT. All day. >> U. So, the last time we talked [music] uh last time I saw you, we were at a cage fight at the White House. >> That’s right. That’s [laughter] That’s >> one of the craziest experiences of my life. It must have been one of the craziest experiences of your life. >> Oh, yeah. It took me like 2 weeks afterwards to recover just to like go, did that actually happen? That seems It seems so insane. >> Okay. The most insane part of it, which I guess was was before you got there to to me at least, is you like you come into work every day in the White House, right? You you know, I have an office in the West Wing. There’s the Oval Office in the West Wing. And you look out the window and as this like eightstory complex was growing up, it was the it was just the most unbelievable thing. I think it’s like the south lawn of the White House, but you’ve got the eighth wonder of the world [laughter] being built up around it. And every day I’d look at it and be like, it would take me a couple seconds to be like, “What the hell is going on?” And I like, “Oh yeah, it’s UFC. It’s UF UFC coming in a couple weeks.” >> The whole thing was surreal. First of all, it was crazy that the weather just went around us. >> Like there was a real moment where the fights would have been postponed until 10:30 p.m. to start. >> Correct. And uh last minute the storm just diverted. >> That’s right. Well, and uh you know this this uh this book that I have that I’m I guess we’ll talk about a little bit, but the book tour started the next day. So I was flying to New York the next day to talk about it. And all I could think about is every time we got the update from White House weather, oh it might not start until 10:30. I was thinking to myself, “Holy that means I’m going to go to bed at like 4:00 a.m. I’m going to look like a total crazy person when I try [laughter] to go talk about go talk about this book.” But yeah, it it it amazingly it did work out. Honestly, it actually helped a little bit because, as you know, it was hot as hell out there and it was super humid, you know, mid June in in in DC. And I think the weather actually helped cool it down a little bit because by about 10:00 or so, I was not thinking it’s hot as hell out here anymore. >> Yeah, it wasn’t too bad. But I talked to Justin Gatey about it and he said it was a problem when he was fighting. He said the air was very thick. Okay. >> Like it like right after the first round, he was like, “Boy, >> like this is rough.” Cuz that hot humid air and you know it’s >> Yeah. Yeah. No, it’s it’s it’s fine walking around. >> It’s it’s I mean it’s okay walking around. It still feels it is a swamp, right? That’s why people call it the swamp. So, you know, that’s obviously June 14th. That’s the president. >> That’s not why they call it the swamp. [laughter] >> That’s one of the reasons why they call it the swamp. >> They call it the swamp. >> They call it swamp because of my colleagues, too. >> Cuz it’s filled with [laughter] mud and water and gunk and and swamp monsters. >> Oh, man. So, that’s June 14th. So, it’s the president’s birthday. That’s also was that was my 12th wedding anniversary. >> Oh, wow. and uh my wife. So that’s that’s the one thing like if somebody runs in here, it’s because my wife’s going into labor cuz she’s like 39 weeks pregnant. But uh I remember we go out to dinner like right before the UFC fight and we’re of course checking the weather report to figure out what’s going on. And you know, my wife normally likes to come to the cool stuff of being vice president. That was the one where she was like, “It’s hot. I’m super pregnant and I’m not going to sit sit out there for six hours.” So >> yeah, I couldn’t imagine [laughter] Also, it was just there was so much chaos and and the potential for real chaos was always there. First of all, you have the Ellipse. So, the Ellipse has what 85,000 people outside >> and for people that watching at home like we could hear them like when the fights when when something would happen >> in like kind of a delayed way, right? >> You hear the cheers from the people that were near. So, it was like 3,000 plus people tightly close to the octagon and then you had 85,000 people in the Yeah. >> Yeah. >> in the background. It was very eerie. >> Yeah. >> I actually loved that. Like I loved the delay reaction to where you know somebody get a good punch in or you know you get a takedown and then it was almost like the wave, right? Cuz there was the initial center of it and then the people outside of it. >> It was pretty sick. >> It was pretty sick. It was very [laughter] cool. I think Dana said not once in a lifetime or not once in a generation or once in a lifetime experience. >> Yeah. I mean, it’s once ever. Yeah. I don’t see any other president. I mean, if you become president, you’re not going to do that, [laughter] right? >> Uh I don’t know, man. >> It’s I wouldn’t I didn’t want to do it. >> Very cool. Get it over with. Do it once. >> It was the only time in the history of the sport where there’s been seven stoppages. Seven Seven knockouts. Like every single fight was a knockout. >> I didn’t realize that. >> Yeah. Every single fight. Okay. >> But the thing is like we’ve had seven knockouts in a card. I think this last weekend we had 10 10 stoppages. >> But um >> that was different because it was like 14 fights. That’s right. >> This is all fights. Every single fight was a knockout. >> So the last fight. When did you realize that was over >> with Connor? >> Yeah. >> Um when he fell down the second time I was like this is not good. F the first time I thought he just slipped. It’s hard to tell. It’s wild. It’s in the moment. I thought he slipped and then when he got up and he threw a kick again, I’m like, “Oh, I don’t like how his leg just gave out.” That didn’t seem like I’m still hoping he’s just slipping. >> Yeah. >> I’m hoping he’s just freaking out cuz he hasn’t been in the octagon in 5 years. >> And then he started moving around and he he like grabbed his knee and buckled. >> Okay. >> And there was some conversation that Yeah. There was some conversation going on between him and Max Holloway. And I was like, >> you know, Max is saying he can’t fight. Like something’s wrong. and he’s saying, “Fight me.” He’s like, “Get up.” And so he lets him up and then his his knee buckles. Then the referee stops the fight. >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. There it always So so the the very I think it was the very last fight where the the ref tried to call it at the end of the third round and then because he was he was saying that there was a concussion issue. I mean I couldn’t tell what was going on. >> This the Ilia Tapora fight, the Justin Gate fight at the White House. >> The Taporio Justin fight. >> He couldn’t see. >> Okay. >> He was saying he couldn’t see. Well, something was wrong with his right eye. >> Well, I mean it looks like his whole face was puffed up, so he couldn’t see anything, but Okay. So, I thought it was a concussion thing, but it was it was because of his vision. >> No, they never got they I mean, the concussion thing would only be if someone had been battered. There’s a lot of times where fighters are fighting with concussions. >> Yeah, it happens all the time. You get dropped in the first round, you probably have a concussion. You get back up, you keep fighting, you’re fighting on instincts. There’s been many times where fighters wake up in like the fourth round >> and they’ve fought three rounds and they don’t remember it at all. >> God, that’s pretty crazy. >> Not the best way to make a living. [laughter] >> Not the best way to make a living, man. Yeah. No. So, we saw Gachi um at the White House a couple of weeks ago and I asked him, I was like, “So, are you done fighting?” And he kind of hesitated a little bit and then I think it was his mom was in the Oval Office with her. She’s like, “Yes.” [laughter] >> Yeah. But, you know, if they offer him some life-changing money for one more fight after that performance, I have a feeling he’ll take it. >> Like, what is what could he fetch for his next fight? Like 50 more? >> It’s a good question. You know, I don’t know what his contract is. I don’t know how it works. I don’t know what the most anyone’s ever I try not to pay attention to that stuff >> because I’m not on the business end of the sport. >> It kind of color your perception a little bit. >> It can. And it’s also it’s I mean I want them to get paid the most amount possible. That’s my perspective. Yeah. >> But what I’m my job is just to analyze and to see what’s going on and to commentate and try to give color and life to what’s happening inside the octagon. And I don’t I try not to dwell too much on the money. I just want them to get paid a lot. Yeah. >> I want them to be able to retire and never have to do anything ever again. >> Sure. >> I don’t know if Justin could do that. What’s crazy about it to me is just how much the sport has replaced boxing and like there’s still obviously boxing is still a big deal and fighters still get paid a lot of money but like I remember when I was I don’t know in high school I feel like people would get really excited about the big heavyweight heavyweight title bout. Now it’s the UFC thing. >> So culturally it’s like UFC has taken over boxing and I don’t I mean I don’t know how or why that happened. Like I don’t know if it’s just good marketing or if it’s just the fights are so much more real and intense. Like I but it’s it is a crazy shift that’s happened in 20 years. >> Well, I’ve had some I had some friends this past weekend that manage fighters. My friend Josh Dubin and a few other friends that actually manage boxers come to the UFC and they were all like, “Oh my god, this is so much better than a boxing promotion.” Because you c all the fights are exciting. With boxing, most people are just there for the main event. >> And a lot of people don’t even stroll in until like 15 minutes before the main event. Sure. >> Like all the famous people that sit in the front row. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh in the UFC, that place is packed for, >> you know, five, six, seven fights in. >> Yeah. >> You know, and there’s 14 fights in the night and all of them are amazing. It’s like in the beginning it’s usually like half full >> depending on where you are. If you’re in a place like Salt Lake City, it’s pretty packed like right away because they only get like one event every year or >> so. >> But um it’s just a more exciting sport. There’s more ways to win. It’s more dynamic. More things happen >> and there’s more stars. There’s so many stars in the UFC. >> Yeah. So I’d never seen a fight live before. Like I’ve watched them on TV, but I’d never been there live. So kind of crazy that it’s literally in the south lawn of the White House. But the thing that I found completely shocking about it was like I would think those those like arm bar takedowns are just done. Like that’s it. You’re over. But there were a couple of times where somebody had another person’s arm and >> Yeah, that was Josh Hoit and Derrick Lewis. >> Bless you. >> Um and it’s like holy >> Yeah, he >> you’re going to have your arm broken off and yet he didn’t. >> He wasn’t doing it right. >> Okay. [laughter] Josh Hok is a great wrestler and he’s an excellent fighter, but he’s not really a submission specialist. I mean, he did get the arm bar, but he didn’t do it right. Okay. >> He was basically like pulling on. You have to elevate your hips and you have to create space so that the arm is bending back this way. His arm is essentially flat to his chest, which is not what you want. What you want is >> a back arch like this where you see like how it is right there. Yeah. Yeah. >> So, what he wants to do here, what he should do instead of having his hips down, his knees up, what you’re supposed to do is heavy leg curls with the leg and elevate the hips up and pull it way back. So, he’d almost be bridging it. He would be on the top of his shoulders and bridging and then he would have broken his arm. The other option is you pull it off to the side like this. >> Yeah. >> And you put it to the side of your hip and you can break it that way. >> Okay. >> But it’s just bad technique. >> Okay. So, watching it. No offense, Josh. >> Yeah. Yeah. Watching it, I didn’t realize that. I just could not believe that dude held out for like 30 seconds with his >> Was that more shocking or when he said Michelle Obama is a man? [laughter] Which one was more shocking? >> Uh, definitely the armbar part. Man, [laughter] I I work in politics. People say crazy stuff all the time. >> Well, he says that every fight, does he? >> Yeah. Yeah, he said it. He said that the last time I interviewed him. >> Oh, man. Well, it’s >> He’s like a pro wrestling character. People lost their minds about it. >> I know. >> Lost their minds about it to the point where again I had the view either the next day or the day after to sort of promote this book. >> That must be fun. >> It was crazy. It was harder than any anything I’ve done in politics. But the the the to the point where all of my comm’s people, the thing they were most worried about was they’re going to ask you about Michelle Obama being called a man. Like what what are you [laughter] like what are you going to say about it? And I was like, what an amped up fighter told a joke after a fight. Said something after a fight and that’s actually national news. I’m still surprised. I’ve been in politics now for three or four years. I’m still shocked the that people get really fired up about. >> Well, I kind of understand it because it’s at the White House. First of all, a cage fight at the White House is crazy already. I mean, if he said Michelle Obama’s a man at the T-Mobile Arena in Vegas, it’s like, okay, >> less of a story. He what he is is he’s a very good fighter first of all and but sometimes that’s not enough to get attention and so what Josh has done is created this persona like this pro wrestling bad guy persona when you talk to him offstage he’s like very normal very smart guy >> it’s just like he’s decided like look I want to maximize the amount of eyeballs that see me and I’m going to create this crazy person he comes out to the Hulk Hogan song I’m a real American who has sunglasses on, American flag band. It’s, you know, he’s >> I mean, I love I love the I love the presentation, but again, I like >> not the best thing to say at the White House. Michelle Obama’s a man is not the best thing to say. >> Fair, but the reaction to it to me was still totally disproportionate. >> Yeah, of course. >> People say, Dude, people say stuff all the time. And what I Okay, I I live I I I work in a business where obviously people make life decision, life and death decisions all the time. And I’m always a little bit caught off guard by the culture that just overreacts when clearly the thing what that Josh is trying to get is the overreaction in the first place, right? >> So you give him exactly what he wants and like the worst you could say is, “Oh, that was an offensive comment.” And you get on with the rest of your life. Like that’s the worst that you could say. the people who really flip out about it and kind of lose their minds. I just I don’t understand that. >> Well, first of all, I think a lot of it is there is an economy that is essentially based on getting reactions. >> Correct. >> And there’s a lot of people that are just, for a lack of a better term, they’re they’re not real. They’re they’re reactions are performative. Like a lot of what they’re doing is just trying to trying to comment on things and get clicks and likes and views. And social media has ruined discourse in a lot of ways because people >> it has >> people are not having like real conversations about things. is they’re reacting to things on Instagram and Twitter >> and you know they’re just they they look at an opportunity like that like oh I found a gold nugget >> they’re like this is going to give me money or this is going to give me attention this is going to give oh I can’t wait to have a take on that. >> That’s exactly right. So but okay so my response to that is so many things is like oh he was being funny he was being outrageous and I just move on with my life. What I find very interesting is the people who say, you know, oh, that was a joke. Like when when Kill Tony, you remember he told like the joke heard around the world in Madison Square Garden during the 2024 election. >> I remember getting into an argument with somebody about this and I may have even been like in an interview, but >> I don’t remember. It could have been private, too. Anyway, I I’m like, he told a joke and then the person’s response is, well, it’s not a very funny joke. And my response to that is, you know what happens when somebody tells me a joke that’s not funny? I don’t laugh and then I move on with my life. This whole industry around outrage, >> especially getting outraged around humor, I think is actually really hurting the country. >> Well, in that case, first of all, I told Tony a long time ago that joke was going to get him stabbed. I really did. He even jokes around about it on stage. He talks about me telling him, “That’s the one, dude. That’s the one’s going to get you stabbed.” Any good joke at least is going to run you some risk of getting >> well certainly a a racial joke and that joke being about Puerto Rico. By the way, no one takes a joke better than Puerto Ricans. Puerto Ricans are some of the best people at telling jokes. Like there it is a culture of joking and and around with each other and talking Like >> they’re great at it. So like >> some Puerto Rican guys in the Marine Corps, man. That’s absolutely true. >> They love him still, you know, like even after that joke. What? So you you you advised him not to tell that joke. >> Well, I was kind of half joking. You know, Tony that’s what Tony does. You know what? By I just said that’s the one that’s going to get you stabbed. But I mean that’s what Tony does. Tony is like the Josh Hokit of comedy. Like he but very talented. You know, he’s a really good he’s a roaster. >> He’s like roasting is is his specialty, but it’s also like he’s trying to ruffle people’s feathers. That’s what he wants to do. He wants to piss people off. That’s he likes being a pro wrestling heel. He always he’s a huge pro wrestling fan. >> Well, so well he so Tony I like I’m a huge fan of his comedy. I’ve only you know met him a couple times. I don’t know him particularly well but he’s actually like you know more political I would say than most comedians. >> Do you think that’s fair? Okay. >> So um >> well very supportive of like Trump >> like he’s on the Republican team. He’s on their 100%. That’s because he’s experienced so many loony leftwing people in California and that’s why he had to move. >> Well, somebody sent me a clip. I think it was Shane Gillis at a roast where the the joke was they were roasting Tony and they’re like, Tony Hinchcliffe is the only dude who would be excited if JD Vance was here. [laughter] And I was like, one, that’s a very good joke. And number two, I feel like I had made it. Like there have been a few moments where I feel like I’ve made it. When >> you’re the vice president of the United States, I think you made it. >> When when South Park spoofed me, I felt it more than when I got it sworn in as vice president of the United States. >> That’s hilarious. That’s very funny. This episode is brought to you by the farmer’s dog. Here’s a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. Isn’t that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So, why is feeding vague scoops of ultrarocessed kibble still the status
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ense of the American dream and of possibility in the future, they’re going to become socialists. Like, if if you have a zero sum environment for a 25-year-old in this country, they’re going to start to say, “The only way for me to get anything is to take away from somebody else.” So we have to get away from like the zero sum thinking. I think that’s like the root cause of this. But I I also think that look we’ve ran an experiment in the United States of America and you know I think that we have we have undone that experiment taken in a different direction in the Trump administration where ship all the factories overseas and let low-wage foreigners make our stuff. That was a bad deal for American workers. Again, it takes a long time to reverse that trend, but I think it’s one of the best parts of Trump administration policy is you do see that trend starting to reverse. This idea that nobody should own anything. We should all become renters, whereas what we’re trying to do is lowest lower interest rates. You actually have seen housing costs stabilize in the country over the last year and a half, frankly, because of immigration. We had way too many people going after way too many homes. You close the border. This is one of the reasons why rent and housing costs have stabilized a little bit. So, I think that unless you go down that pathway of allowing young Americans to own something, socialism is the inevitable outcome. Do I think that’s good? No. But I I really do worry, and I I see this frankly more in my own party than I do on the other side. There is this revulsion to socialism that’s totally justified without enough thinking about how did we get here in the first place. And if man if we don’t fix that and I I would say if we don’t get back to a more Christian sort of understanding of of economics socialism is the alternative like that that is where this goes. People don’t own anything rigged. >> Exactly. And in some ways Joe the game is rigged. >> Yes. the I mean if if you look at >> I mean again I I just I think so much of housing because you know this happened I think it was during the presidential campaign maybe it was right before but I was I was talking to some family members over Thanksgiving and you know just a sort of a younger friend of of my wife’s they were like five or six years behind us they were just about to get married and this this young woman successful engineer makes a higher salary than most Americans. She just sort of like tossed out there that, you know, when her parents’ generation was coming up, it was like possible to own a house and to raise a family and not be worried that much about things. And my thought was, okay, you’re an engineer. You make way more money than 75% of people your age, maybe 90% of people your age, and you think that it is like this ridiculous unachievable objective to have literally what your parents had, which is a decent job, a nice house, and a and a safe place like at that literally that same that same dinner like another guy another friend of my wife was talking about this and he you know South Indian family grew up you know his parents immigrated he was born and raised in San Diego and he was like you know when I was growing up in Oceanside. This is like a suburb of San Diego where there a lot of Marines live in Oceanside. It’s close to Camp Pendleton. Said when I was growing up, all of my like the kids that I played with that I rode bo bikes with, that I was, you know, playing street hockey with and football with, all of those kids were the sons of enlisted Marines in Oceanside, California. And then we went and looked at like Oceanside, California rents. Again, this is a couple years ago, rents and housing prices. Like every house was north of a million dollars on the street this guy grew up in. And listen, Marine, frankly, most Marine officers could not afford to buy a million-dollar house. So, like, does the socialism thing scare me? Yes. Is it the wrong solution? Yes. But one thing I try to persuade my fellow Republicans of is socialism is the alternative if we don’t have a pathway to give people a sense that the system is not rigged and that the American dream is attainable. That’s like our job. That’s what we have to do. I’m not saying Rome was built in a day. It’s not going to be easy to undo some of these economic trends. But man, we ran the experiment. We ran the experiment of offshoring all of our industrial jobs, of becoming a services and finance economy and allowing Wall Street to come in and buy every asset of modern life and turn it into an investable, you know, line goes up asset. And what has that done? It’s created a generation of kids who kind of are attracted to socialism. >> We have to fix that problem. >> Well, kids that do feel, and you’re correct, and I I I agree with you, the system is rigged. Kids feel like there are no options other than to burn it down. Yes. And that’s the problem because they feel very frustrated. >> And this is part of our job is to provide an option that isn’t burn it down, but is not just doing the same things that we’ve done for the past. But they’re also terrified about the future because of AI because they feel like jobs are going to be taken away and there will be no place for people that have education in very specific [snorts] avenues like very specific jobs are going to just be irrelevant. >> Yeah. >> They’re going to be completely wiped out by AI. >> There is a huge fear over this. So I let me kind of give my own my own spin on this. >> Yes. I was talking to a CEO not of an AI company but of a tech company and he’s one of the few CIO CEOs that’s sort of right or center and I was like well you know what do you think do you think AI is going to come and take all the jobs and his basic take was the the real historical analogy is the industrial revolution and you know did the industrial revolution displace or change a lot of jobs yes it also created a lot of jobs that didn’t exist before so he was like my concern here is not that 50% of Americans are going to be unable to find a job. There will be some displacement, some sort of churn in the labor market, but that’s not the main issue. He said the main issue, if you go back to the industrial revolution, is that there was a lot of demand for workers, but the inequality in the country got completely out of whack. Like this is the era of the robber barons. And then the robber barons in both Europe and the United States led to fascism. It led to communism again to this point about giving people an option. if you don’t give them a good option, then it leads to fascism and communism. >> Now, there’s this fascinating encyclical um written by by Pope Leo I 13th. I’ll send it to you. It’s one of the the best things that I think has ever been written by a Christian leader where it’s it’s written in the late 19th century. And the basic argument of it is that in the age of industrial churn, there has to be a middle way between six-year-olds working on the factory floor and socialism. And part of that solution is to give workers a sort of say in what’s going on. Give normal people some power in this in this in this system. And I think that’s the thing we have to figure out with AI. I won’t say that I have all the solutions because I haven’t. But I think the fundamental question is how do you ensure that normal people have some control over this? control over what’s their kids are seeing, control over, you know, the the the economic forces that are being unleashed by AI, some certainty that they’re not going to wake up in a world where they can’t buy a home, but some other guy owns 35 mansions, right? That that to me is is the fundamental challenge of AI is it’s going to unleash a lot of wealth creation, but if that wealth creation all goes to some some segment of people, you’re going to have communism. like that that is that is the choice before us is a lot of wealth being created that’s good by the way I like I like wealth being created but if if you don’t ensure that there’s some broader prosperity from that wealth creation like we have run this experiment before and it leads to communism >> right so if the system is how do we unfuck it >> so [sighs and gasps] >> you have a magic wand >> I I mean look I I this is what I’m I’m saying I’m being honest with you that I I don’t have a magic wand I I think there are a few things that that that we should sort of take from this I think. Okay. The first is that we should give workers a real say at the bargaining table. Okay. So, what really worries me about AI is the is the fact that private sector unions have largely disappeared from the United States of America. There are a couple of exceptions, but if you go back to like why did the United States and Britain weather um the industrial revolution better than literally every other western country? I think you could make a good argument. Strong religious institutions. Right now, we have very weak religious institutions. Number two, I think you could say strong worker participation institutions and not just private sector labor unions. That was a big piece of it. But people don’t realize that, you know, Hollywood major studios would actually work with community groups and churches to sort of help like develop content. Now, this was an organic. This was a natural cooperation. And this wasn’t mandated by some law, but where they’d go and say, “Help us produce content that actually speaks to your membership, that speaks to your community.” And there was this sense of participation in American society that I think we’ve lost. And and that’s the thing that I think that we have to rebuild a little bit. It’s interesting that, you know, the Trump administration, the president personally, certainly me have been accused of being too pro- labor for Republicans. But one of the reason why I’m pro- labor as a Republican is because, and I’m not saying unions are perfect. Some of them have very serious problems. Like I’m opened about this, like the alternative may very well be communism in the United States of America. Not next year, but down the road, you’ve got to give people a seat at the table. And I think that’s that’s one answer to the question. Um I I think a second answer to the question is is competition. So if if you go back again to what worked and what was broken about the industrial revolution, hyper monopolist style companies that had way too much power. I mean Teddy Roosevelt famously talked about how um you know some of the steel trusts were more powerful than the United States government. So you could vote your vote didn’t matter as much because the corporations were more powerful than the government. I think reigning that in making sure that like how do you what’s the most obvious way to give normal people participation it’s democracy but if a single corporation has monopolized an entire space then you don’t have a real a real democracy unless you reign in the power of that company and I think that that is another big risk with AI it’s that we have a hyper monopouist who dominates the space and then influences the government influences the nonprofit sector and then real people are effectively cut out of the bargain. So again, I’m not going to pretend sitting here that I have all the solutions. I think about this more than almost anything else right now. But it’s the solution has to be giving normal people actual authority over their own lives. >> But how can the government get involved in those steps? Like what could be done on a federal level to implement that? Well, [sighs] you know, I I think one of the things and and we’ve we’ve looked at legislation along these lines, we haven’t yet pushed anything, but you know, one problem with the 20 with with like the private sector labor union. One reason why you Democrats will say you private unions are at super low participation rates because the government is, you know, been anti-UN. There’s like some element of truth to that. But the reality is that a lot of workers don’t see the utility in joining a union because it’s like in a lot of ways it’s a 20th century institution when you need a 21st century institution. So I think updating the modern union to be to make more sense in the 21st century I think that’s that’s a part of the story. Um you know I think I think antitrust >> how would you do that? Well, a friend of mine, his name is Orin Cass, actually, very fascinating guy, sort of a right-of-c center economic thinker. you know, his his idea is that 20th century labor law presupposes a sort of zero sum conflict between the company and the union and that where you’ve seen unions actually thrive certain places in Europe, it’s a little bit more cooperative and the the unions actually have a little bit more power themselves where they can negotiate with the corporation with a little bit more breadth and a little bit more freedom. Whereas in the United States, we sort of set a floor. we make we we create a very small number of things the union can actually negotiate over and so a lot of people say well why would I join a union why would I participate in it so basically making the union a little bit more cooperative which requires changing the legal form of it I think that’s interesting I think antitrust is a huge piece of the story now it’s it’s a little early with AI because we don’t yet know which companies are dominant but I think one of the big mistakes man we made in the early 2000s is we should have gone after the big tech companies with antitrust like there is like a trustbusting mechanism that exists in the US government. We just didn’t use it. We’re going to have to be willing to use it in the 21st century. >> And when it comes to unions, um what like what what is wrong with the current structure um in in terms of what what power the unions have to negotiate for for labor. So let me look. So there’s a concrete example that that Orin uses all the time. So in in some European countries, you have a minimum wage, right? In some European countries, the union can can actually cut a deal with the employer to where you pay a brand new employee less than the minimum wage, then you pay a more senior person higher than the minimum wage. But in order to pay the junior employee less than the minimum wage, you have to provide them job training and better benefits and so forth. And so the idea is you turn the employ for the first couple of years you turn the company almost into an educational institution but in order to do that the union has to have flexibility. That kind of arrangement is effectively illegal in the United States of America. So it’s that you create the ability for the union to be more flexible in how it negotiates. You don’t set all the terms for it. You allow the union to figure out what’s in the best interest of its membership. But people are opposed like initially knee-jerk reaction to lowering wages and even in lowering minimum wage. I mean the most people feel and I agree that minimum wage is almost impossible to live off of especially with >> 100%. Yeah. That it is but but but what these unions are not asking for I mean you have to kind of trust the labor representation of the people to sort of make the right arrangement for them. And so it’s not, hey, let’s create a minimum wage or a wage floor that’s lower than the minimum wage. It’s what about taking for the first year of a person coming into the labor market where, you know, they work an internship for zero dollars, right, at a at a company. Why don’t we allow our workers to work effectively an internship, get the training they need, get the benefits that they need, and then join the workforce full-time at a much higher wage? The the idea is that you trust the union to come up with this or or the labor organization, whatever you want to call it, is you actually give the union the ability to sort of negotiate over this stuff on behalf of its members. You don’t assume the way the United States we do it is we we basically take all that authority away from the union itself and we try to settle this stuff at the level of the government. But again, where unions have been more successful, where they actually have higher membership and participation rates, what you see is the the these organizations actually have much greater flexibility and that ends up meaning that more people want to join. That means these organizations have more power and then that means they can figure out the arrangement that works best for their membership. So you kind of have to trust people. You have to trust that people are willing to do this thing um for for their own for their own benefit. And you know, so long as they’ve got the right authority and so long as they’ve got the right tools, you give you kind of trust people to do what’s in their best interest in these organizations to do what’s in the best interest of their membership. >> Well, the the problem that people would have with that is that corporations have a responsibility to their shareholders and they always want to make the most money possible and they have to make more money next quarter than they made this quarter. And one of the ways they do that is by paying people less. >> But that’s why I think that you have to give workers some some seat at the bargaining table. There there there is a there is a theory of like economics that dominated in the late 20th century America which is that basically that you know the labor market was entirely efficient and maybe the corporation didn’t want to pay their workers more money but they would be forced to pay their workers more money purely because if they didn’t do that then they wouldn’t be able to get enough workers. Now, I do think that there’s an argument for like there are all of these ways why we should give workers more bargaining power. One of them and we’ve spent a lot of time talking about labor organizations and that’s important. Man, one of the reasons why I’m such an immigration hawk is because it is really important not to flood the country with low-wage immigrants, right? Because if you give a corporation a choice between a low-wage immigrant and a native worker who’s going to require, by the way, a native worker of any race, they’re going to be forced to pay the native worker more if there’s not a pool of low-wage workers to to go to. And this is like a consistent finding in the economics literature, but also just common sense that when you flood the country with low-wage immigrants, this is why I think the DSA types are a little full of when they talk about helping normal people. If you want to help a normal person, don’t provide a corporation nine low-wage migrants to compete against them when they’re bargaining for wages. You actually give workers more power when you have a more restricted immigration policy. >> Well, this is that’s the that that’s that’s where the real con is, right? Because a lot of Yeah. You’ve told me that you had a conversation with uh someone who was at the head of some corporation that was upset that they were trying to shut down illegal immigration because he said it’s >> head of a hotel chain. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Cuz he said basically I want to be able to pay my workers less money and it’s very hard because the native workers expect higher wages. >> It’s crazy. I mean there there dude there’s there’s this story from a few years ago. It was the New York Times. It was like unintentionally hilarious. And it’s talking about a, you know, why Apple would choose to manufacture in Asia over the United States of America. And it’s talking about how, you know, the American workers and it’s it’s almost kind of judgy towards the American workers. It’s like, well, you know, the American workers want to go home and see their kids and have dinner with their kids. And it’s like, by the way, you go to the Foxcon factory in Apple in China, the Foxcon factory that develops products for Apple and China, and what do you see? You literally see suicide nets around the top of the building because, yeah, the workers work 72 hours a week and they sleep in little apartments four to a bedroom, but they also are so miserable, you have to take steps to prevent them from killing themselves. So, you know, what I want out of American life is a little bit more dignity, a little bit more, oh, you know, yeah, I can I can I can afford to feed my family. I can also go home and actually watch my kids’ baseball game. And that balance, I think, if you’re looking at it from a pure profit motive, you know, maybe the corporation isn’t going to think like that, which is why you have to give the people real power to push back and advocate for their own interests. I think a lot of people in this country, if they had to choose, especially people that have money, if they had to choose between a phone that was manufactured in America where people were paid a very good wage and had benefits and you have an iPhone that has a little American flag on the back and you have one that doesn’t. I think a lot of people would buy the one with the American flag on the back because >> just they would feel better about their purchase. They’d feel I feel weird when I’m holding a phone [laughter] and I know that someone was working in some factory in some foreign country working 15 hours a day and and being paid nothing. >> That’s right. I think that’s true of our food, by the way, too. >> Yeah. >> They they’d much rather it be, you know, made locally. They’re willing to pay a little bit more so long as it’s it’s healthier and it’s made locally. There obviously are exceptions to every rule, but I I do again I think that we have run the experiment where we just try to do everything with low-wage foreigners, whether they’re in the United States via illegal immigration or whether they’re outside the United States via offshoring and outsourcing. And what it has led to is I think a society where socialism is a bit on the rise. And one of our jobs in the administration, I think about this all the time, is how do you make things I’m not saying we’re perfect and I’m not saying there isn’t a lot of work to do because there is like we were left in quite a hole by 40 years of bad policy. People always talk about the Biden administration inflation. Yeah, the Biden administration inflation was terrible. Got up to 9%. By the way, I think today’s CPI report is you had deflation in the United States. We actually had prices coming down which is good because the Iran war gas prices came down. But like >> gas prices have come down now because of the Iran war. >> No, no, no. Compared to where they were a month ago, >> right? >> So they’re they’re not down from the beginning of the war, but they’re down from where they were a month ago. So you had a good CPI report, uh a consumer price inflation report today. My my point is, yes, I don’t ever get to the 9% inflation of the B administration. Yes, the Trump administration has had a much better record on inflation than the Biden administration. nothing close to 9% even in our worst month. But some of this stuff is actually much longer term. This is 40 years of failed bipartisan leadership which has created really a kind of shell corporation out of the United States of America. We don’t make enough of our own stuff. We don’t have enough self-reliance. Our workers don’t have enough bargaining power. That has led in a lot of ways, I think, to this kind of socialism fervor. And we have to keep fixing these problems. Again, I think that we’re going in the right direction. Maybe people disagree, but it’s going to take years to fix this problem. And if we don’t, we are going to end up with a socialist president in this country. >> I think it’s also a narrative change. And that the the narrative is stopping immigration is cruelty. Correct. And you’re you’re you’re racist or xenophobic and that uh we should just instead give these people citizenship. And it’s it’s not a coincidence that I mean like what we dealt with over the last four years was insane where they just opened the border and not just encouraged people to come across but facilitated it helped them got them on Medicaid got them on social security got people the they told people do you have a bad back okay well you’re permanent disability and you get free money put them in a hotel give them a phone like that’s crazy and then move them to blue states and then you realize that that has a direct impact on congressional seats >> because of the census which is also nuts. The census should count citizens. >> It should only count citizens but it doesn’t and that actually steals congressional representation away from areas that have lower illegal immigration, right? >> Which is its own its own problem. So yeah, it it’s it’s the thing that I don’t understand about the Democratic Socialists of America. And obviously I disagree with a lot of their ideas, but like if you go back to Caesar Chavez, one of the original like founding fathers of the American workers rights movement, okay? He was a hardcore restrictionist on immigration because he thought that the bosses would bring in low-wage immigrants to compete against his workers and that would drive down their wages. And yet the DSA, which says they care about the wages of workers, is quite literally like an open borders organization. So I I tend to think that it’s it’s all BS that they are actually pursuing a set of policies that are good for that are like corporations care way more about open borders than they do about any other policy the DSA cares about. So while these people say that they’re trying to fight for workers and they’re trying to fight for the working man, the actual end result of DSA policy is to flood the country with low-wage immigrants which will destroy the middle class in this country. In fact, we have run this experiment for decades now and we have a much weaker middle class than we did before it started. And I think this is a part of the the problem this country has that there’s this narrative uh Republicans are cruel and they’re anti-worker and that they’re anti- lower class people or lower middle class people. >> Yep. >> That narrative has to someone has to do a better job of messaging. >> I’m trying to, man. I’m trying to. But, you know, it’s it’s one of those things that it’s it took a long while for it to set in. It’s going to take a long while to to get out of it. But what I just I try to remind people is that anybody who actually cares about the safety of your community is going to care about not empowering police brutality, but empowering the good cops to do what they need to do. Anybody who cares about law and order is going to want to throw violent criminals in jail, not close down the prison. Anybody who cares about your wages and your safety is going to want to control the border. So I I I just all I can think to do is to remind people that I’m not saying Republicans are perfect and you know I have disagreements of course within my own party all the time but fundamentally our party is right now pursuing a much better set of policies when it comes to safety of your home, your wages, your ability to keep more of your money. I just got to keep preaching that message and you know the chips fall where they may. And if you just look at the result of what you see in these cities where they don’t enforce crime, where they don’t enforce immigration laws, they provide sanctuary states, you see disasters over and over and over again. >> Yeah. >> I mean, and I I don’t understand >> exactly >> why people who are voting for these things can’t see that. They can’t see that the results have been catastrophic year after year. They keep getting worse. >> And the idea of voting a new better person to do the same thing is just crazy. >> Yeah, it it’s it’s totally crazy to me, too. I think part of it is we haven’t done a good enough job of actually going to some of these places. Part of it is that it is shifting and sometimes these shifts just take a long time. If you look, the Republican party under Trump’s leadership is way more workingass, way more middle class than the Republican party of 20 years ago. So these things are starting to shift. But the public safety thing is very interesting to me because like one of the promises of America is that every man, woman, and child, rich or poor, black or white, deserves public safety. Like it every rich person ever has had public safety. Every rich person ever has been able to afford some security guard to make sure that somebody who comes and tries to steal their stuff or kidnap their kids, they’re protected against that. What America did is we democratized public safety. Every person gets to keep their property. Every person gets to not be stolen from. Every person gets to walk down their neighborhood at night without being being mugged. And obviously we have imperfectly applied that. But what the left has done over the last few years. Why I think the crime thing is it’s not just a sort of public safety thing. It’s also a class thing is they have made working people less safe. Like if you look at my neighborhood, the neighborhood that I my working-class grandparents raised me in, it became less safe over time. And really workingclass neighborhoods had much higher rates of violence, much higher rates of carjackings and so forth. That happened during Biden’s administration. >> That’s not a coincidence. >> No. Uh anything else? [laughter] >> Anything else? >> Go by Go by Go by Communion, Joe, and we can we can talk about uh religion and faith and the Ten Commandments next time. But thanks for having me, man. >> Thanks for being here. Appreciate it. All right. [music] Wrap it up. Bye, everybody. Great. [music] Hey. Hey.